Banning the inside move

[omg]

I heard the fake to 3rd throw to first move will be banned next year. Not sure what the stipulations will be (can a pitcher just fake to 3rd? if the runner at 1st goes, what then?). I'd rather see the inside move to 2nd banned, not just in the big leagues. It greatly lengthens games, it's unfairly tough on the runner, and it works, especially at the amateur level. Guys are using it all the time, and why not, it's effective.

Any thoughts?

[raptor]

I heard the fake to 3rd throw to first move will be banned next year. Not sure what the stipulations will be (can a pitcher just fake to 3rd? if the runner at 1st goes, what then?). I'd rather see the inside move to 2nd banned, not just in the big leagues. It greatly lengthens games, it's unfairly tough on the runner, and it works, especially at the amateur level. Guys are using it all the time, and why not, it's effective.

Any thoughts?

My understanding is the rule prohibits fakes to third without disengaging the rubber...whether or not there is a runner on first...so obviously the 3-1 play got the most attention because there just aren't many straight picks attempted at third. But it does even things up on both corners in a way..a lefty cant do that move legally with runners on first and third. As for the inside move to second, both lefties and righties can perform it equally effectively.

[jbolt_2000]

I haven't heard this new rule. Is this for MLB? Do you have a source?
If its true, I think you are basically letting the 1B runner take an easy steal to 2B.
As for the inside move to 2B I disagree - I think its extremely easy to watch for and feel the spin move to second is much harder to figure out as a runner. We treat the inside move or "spaghetti move" as more of a "keep 'em honest" type move - never really trying to get the runner out.

In any case, I would be surprised if they ban the fake to 3rd.

[jbolt_2000]

My understanding is the rule prohibits fakes to third without disengaging the rubber...whether or not there is a runner on first...so obviously the 3-1 play got the most attention because there just aren't many straight picks attempted at third. But it does even things up on both corners in a way..a lefty cant do that move legally with runners on first and third. As for the inside move to second, both lefties and righties can perform it equally effectively.

But aren't you disengaging after you step towards third anyways? Granted it is after the step to 3rd, but you are disengaging. If you keep your right foot on the rubber, then spin to first, then it is a balk, correct? So they are saying you have to disengage first, then make your move?
-- So if I am the 1B runner, I wait for the pitcher to lift his left leg and it doesn't matter where he throws, I just need to beat the throw to second from either the catcher or third baseman. Bottomline, you steal on first movement. The only thing you need to worry about as 1B runner is the step off from a righty.

[raptor]

But aren't you disengaging after you step towards third anyways? Granted it is after the step to 3rd, but you are disengaging. If you keep your right foot on the rubber, then spin to first, then it is a balk, correct? So they are saying you have to disengage first, then make your move?
-- So if I am the 1B runner, I wait for the pitcher to lift his left leg and it doesn't matter where he throws, I just need to beat the throw to second from either the catcher or third baseman. Bottomline, you steal on first movement. The only thing you need to worry about as 1B runner is the step off from a righty.

They are saying in order to fake to third you would have to step off like a lefty would on a fake to first. Sure a runner can go on first move from a righty in a first and third situation just as he could if there was no runner on first...he may get picked off or thrown out..not to say he will get any better jump than he would than if there were no runner on third.

[NY1]

But aren't you disengaging after you step towards third anyways? Granted it is after the step to 3rd, but you are disengaging. If you keep your right foot on the rubber, then spin to first, then it is a balk, correct? So they are saying you have to disengage first, then make your move?
-- So if I am the 1B runner, I wait for the pitcher to lift his left leg and it doesn't matter where he throws, I just need to beat the throw to second from either the catcher or third baseman. Bottomline, you steal on first movement. The only thing you need to worry about as 1B runner is the step off from a righty.

Not sure going on first movement is the way to go....
the pitcher could do an "inside move/spaghetti move" and throw to second if he knows the runner is GOING for sure....

[mudvnine]

Why don't they simply enforce to rule that they already have in the book? OBR Rule 8.05(c) states.....

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;

Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.

A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

They've simply failed to enforce and penalize the pitchers for the "deceptive" move that by definition in the OBR is a balk.

It is a balk if they step to 3rd and then throw to 1st unless they SEE the runner at "start for 2nd"......they cannot simply step towards 3rd, "bluff" a throw (most don't even do that any longer), and turn and throw to 1st in an attempt to "pick off" the runner at 1st as is now so commonly seen and improperly enforced at all level of the game.

Just enforce the rules and they won't have to worry about changing them.....

[azmatsfan]

I haven't heard this new rule. Is this for MLB? Do you have a source?
If its true, I think you are basically letting the 1B runner take an easy steal to 2B.
As for the inside move to 2B I disagree - I think its extremely easy to watch for and feel the spin move to second is much harder to figure out as a runner. We treat the inside move or "spaghetti move" as more of a "keep 'em honest" type move - never really trying to get the runner out.

In any case, I would be surprised if they ban the fake to 3rd.

How is this any different than when there's just a runner on first?

[CoolHandLuke]

My understanding is that this move will be enforced starting next year. I think most in baseball agree that this move is clearly deceptive and should have been called a balk all along.

The step off is not what they're mandating (once a pitcher steps off, he's just another fielder and can make whichever move he wants to any base). They will mandate that if you step toward a base, you must make the throw to that base. Currently they allow pitcher to step to 3rd and feign the throw.

[raptor]

My understanding is that this move will be enforced starting next year. I think most in baseball agree that this move is clearly deceptive and should have been called a balk all along.

The step off is not what they're mandating (once a pitcher steps off, he's just another fielder and can make whichever move he wants to any base). They will mandate that if you step toward a base, you must make the throw to that base. Currently they allow pitcher to step to 3rd and feign the throw.

The owners and officials were in favor of it but the players' Union vetoed it. It may get pushed back another year.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/baseball/mlb/05/10/pick.off.move.ap/index.html

[skipper5]

The owners and officials were in favor of it but the players' Union vetoed it. It may get pushed back another year.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201....ap/index.html

From the SI article:
Boone Logan: "Besides, how often does it work? Maybe once in never," he said.

Obviously Boone Logan doesn't understand the 3-1 move's real value, which is NOT to pick off a runner. It's real value is to deter hair-trigger jumps by the potential basestealer at first. Pitchers must display it occasionally as a reminder.

When a first base coach warns a potential basestealer, "Watch the 3-1 move", the job is accomplished.

[CoolHandLuke]

Obviously Boone Logan doesn't understand the 3-1 move's real value, which is NOT to pick off a runner. It's real value is to deter hair-trigger jumps by the potential basestealer at first. Pitchers must display it occasionally as a reminder. When a first base coach warns a potential basestealer, "Watch the 3-1 move", the job is accomplished.

Yes it does put the runner on 1st at a disadvantage, which is why many think it's an unfair advantage to the pitcher. Runners at 1st almost always go on first move, whether there's another runner at 3rd or not. And when a pitcher happens to do the 3-1 at the right time, he gets them. People can say how this move never works but their wrong. It picks off plenty of runners. If you study the percentage of successful pickoff from the 3-1 compared to regular throws to first, I'm positive you'll find the 3-1 works at a higher percentage.

Bottom line is that a runner at 1st should not be put at a disadvantage simply because another runner is on 3rd. I get a kick out of the argument that if you disallow the 3-1 move, runners on 1st will be taking 2nd base unabated. It's simply not true. They will have no further advanatage than if they were on first with no one else on. Pitchers can still hold them on and make throws over as always.

[jbolt_2000]

How is this any different than when there's just a runner on first?

Maybe I worded it wrong. I think the difference is that with runners at 1st & 3rd, the runner from first is more hesitant to steal when the pitcher lifts his leg because it could be a 3-1 move. If this rule is enforced it takes away that deterrent for the runner. Statistically, I have no idea how much affect it has on runners staying or going, but I imagine it makes the 1b runner wait an extra half second before stealing.

As skipper5 says -

Obviously Boone Logan doesn't understand the 3-1 move's real value, which is NOT to pick off a runner. It's real value is to deter hair-trigger jumps by the potential basestealer at first. Pitchers must display it occasionally as a reminder.

When a first base coach warns a potential basestealer, "Watch the 3-1 move", the job is accomplished.

That was what I was trying to say...

[omg]

I think it's a good idea (when a pitcher is on the rubber) to have a rule that says if you are going to step to a base you have to throw to a base. Why not? At least it puts the pitcher at some risk of throwing it away. And also that a pitcher has to turn backside (not inside) when throwing to 2nd. There is no need for deception and it is not like it's too easy to steal a base anyways. All the pickoffs and fakes just lengthen the game.

[dominik]

I heard the fake to 3rd throw to first move will be banned next year. Not sure what the stipulations will be (can a pitcher just fake to 3rd? if the runner at 1st goes, what then?). I'd rather see the inside move to 2nd banned, not just in the big leagues. It greatly lengthens games, it's unfairly tough on the runner, and it works, especially at the amateur level. Guys are using it all the time, and why not, it's effective.

Any thoughts?

Well this means that the guys can take huge leads.

Banning the inside move means the runner can go halfway to third once the knee lifts. and banning the first and third fake move means the lead runner can walk halfway home and probably even steal home once he sees a pickoff to first (you could even do a sacrifice play with the runner on first drawing a throw to first letting himself getting thrown out and the lead runner taking home.