Mike Epstein new dvds? "The Core Program"

[djmas]

Hello all,

Have any of you had the chance to check out the latest installment from Mike Epstein? I have been putting off getting his "On Target" dvd and was going to finally order that today. Well when I went to his site all I seen listed were his new dvd's that were released the beginning of this month. Just wanted to get some feedback before I went ahead and went with the old dvd's from another site, or if I should just invest in the new "Core Program" and "Advanced Drills" dvds.

your comments are greatly appreciated.

MV

[mudvnine]

Grrrrr, these kinds of posts frustrate me....no, not you in particular "dj", just the concept of "professional" instructors making money off of DVD sales, while using their students as experimental Guinea pigs as the work on the "latest and greatest" hitting method, in order to sell more videos to the unsuspecting.

Now this is not a rant on just Mike (or maybe now Jake his son), but just at the overall idea of it, or at least what it looks like so blatantly to me as just another marketing plan/scam.

IOWs, I just don't know how to spin this into a good light. I guess one could say that through continued research, they've discovered that what they were teaching previously was incomplete or even worse wrong.

What does that say to all of the kids they trained in the past, who spent their (or their parents') hard earned money learning from these experts?

"Oops, we made a mistake. Besides doing XYZ, you should now also be doing ABC on top of it....you can find ABC in our new video". Or even worse, "Hey, after extensive research, we found out that what we were teaching was somewhat incorrect, and as a result, have completely revamped our hitting method, and are presenting it in this brand new video".

Unless they're sending out their "new" videos for free to those who have already purchased their old ones, than I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth when reading about long time instructors coming out with "new" videos.....somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. :dismay:

How long will these new "Core" videos be good, until you "need" the next one they send out? I guess it's like the old saying goes, "Buyer beware"....

That all said and out of my system......

From his past material, Epstein is not a bad place to start, and if his new stuff is anything like is old stuff, there are probably move positives than negatives with regards to purchasing from them. IOWs, all-in-all, I think his stuff isn't too bad, all things considered.

[djmas]

I just wasn't sure if I should opt for the new videos or go with the old ones like "How to hit your potential" and "do we teach" video. Anyone care to chime in?

[giantheart]

Grrrrr, these kinds of posts frustrate me....no, not you in particular "dj", just the concept of "professional" instructors making money off of DVD sales, while using their students as experimental Guinea pigs as the work on the "latest and greatest" hitting method, in order to sell more videos to the unsuspecting.

Now this is not a rant on just Mike (or maybe now Jake his son), but just at the overall idea of it, or at least what it looks like so blatantly to me as just another marketing plan/scam.

IOWs, I just don't know how to spin this into a good light. I guess one could say that through continued research, they've discovered that what they were teaching previously was incomplete or even worse wrong.

What does that say to all of the kids they trained in the past, who spent their (or their parents') hard earned money learning from these experts?

"Oops, we made a mistake. Besides doing XYZ, you should now also be doing ABC on top of it....you can find ABC in our new video". Or even worse, "Hey, after extensive research, we found out that what we were teaching was somewhat incorrect, and as a result, have completely revamped our hitting method, and are presenting it in this brand new video".

Unless they're sending out their "new" videos for free to those who have already purchased their old ones, than I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth when reading about long time instructors coming out with "new" videos.....somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. :dismay:

How long will these new "Core" videos be good, until you "need" the next one they send out? I guess it's like the old saying goes, "Buyer beware"....

That all said and out of my system......

From his past material, Epstein is not a bad place to start, and if his new stuff is anything like is old stuff, there are probably move positives than negatives with regards to purchasing from them. IOWs, all-in-all, I think his stuff isn't too bad, all things considered.

I agree whole heartedly...I have purchased epstein's stuff in the past and consider it pretty good...

The fact that they are offering "new" simpler instruction is somewhat annoying...As far as I can tell they are moving away from the torque and numbers drills to other types of drills.

[songtitle]

Or even worse, "Hey, after extensive research, we found out that what we were teaching was somewhat incorrect, and as a result, have completely revamped our hitting method, and are presenting it in this brand new video".

Unless they're sending out their "new" videos for free to those who have already purchased their old ones, than I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth when reading about long time instructors coming out with "new" videos.....somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. :dismay:

This is a puzzler. Had you rather they keep pushing the same (wrong) stuff? I'm not following you at all. To me, this is the right thing to do. It takes guts to admit you are wrong, and you should always be selling your latest ideas.

[crazyhawk]

I am not understanding mud's post at all. First of all, the Epstein hitting DVD's haven't been updated in sooooo long that it was time to get a fresh look and to show new drills and new ways to teach. That would happen with ANYONE who is a good teacher. You learn new drills or new techniques that severely help someone learn the skill and make them better. But according to you, since 15 years ago, they put out a DVD, they aren't allowed to evolve and show new ways to get better instruction to your kid? I don't get your mindset at all.

Also, Mike Epstein is for all intents and purposes, retired now and his son has taken the reigns. Jake has added a new way at looking at his dad's material and has tweaked the weak spots in his Dad's instruction. Most importantly, Jake has added slow motion video analysis that really lay it all out and allows the Dad's to see exactly what most youth hitters are doing incorrectly. This type of motion software has been around for years, but the old Epstein stuff didn't touch this and the hitting philosophies have changed due to the ability to see what is really going on within a swing.

I give Mike a ton of credit for helping start the "rotational philosophies" boom instead of the junkie linear, hands to ball, squish the bug stuff that was prevalant for years. His son has picked up the baton and taken it to the next level. To convey his hitting philosophies to more acurately reflect the most current hitting positions that young hitters need to get their bodies into....a new DVD was needed.

Why does Microsoft put out new operating systems? Why does Apple put out the newest phone or tablet? One, is obviously to make money and secondly, because their is a lot of really cool stuff that can be added to these products to make them better than the original.

[giantheart]

I can't speak for Mud, but for myself, as a consumer, it is troubling. Here is why:

I don't think Jake got up one morning last June and all of sudden had a revelation that his material needed updating and that he learned a bunch of new ways to teach hitting overnight that made the old ways obsolete...It is far more probable that his thinking has evolved gradually, over the past ten years.

The problem I have is that right up until the end of September, he was still selling his old DVDs, knowing full well that he was planning on updating his material and no longer in favor of the the teaching techniques he was offering in those DVDs. That is borderline dishonest. At the very least he should have offered those people who recently purchased his materials a free update, or discount on the new material. Or, at the very least, give announce he was updating his stuff and give consumers a choice.

Honestly, I was borderline recommending Epstein in the past on these boards. I thought the stuff was easy to understand and apply... but after this stunt, I don't think I can honestly recommend him to anyone anymore. its not because he has evolved, I think that is good, but its because he held back what he knew from consumers.

Your comparison to Microsoft and other companies is not accurate. Technology companies announce when their new products are going to be introduced well in advance and then they lower the price of their old products in the months prior to the new releases. Can you imagine if Apple, suddenly introduced a new iphone6 next week without telling anyone..Don't you think the people who purchased the iphone5 the past two months would be upset?

Or a better example, lets say you go to the doctor to get your tonsils removed, not an emergency, but something you needed to get done..He performs the surgery like he has for the past ten years. You are in the hospital for a day. You have soar throat that lasts for five days, can't talk, miss work,etc. A month later, this doctor, just receives FDA approval to perform a new procedure, the zaps your tonsils out using a painless in-patient procedure and a magical laser zapping machine. The doctor is the world's expert at this procedure that he has been working on for 5 years. He was talking with the guys at the FDA that approve this stuff and he knew well in advance that this thing going to get approved in a month. Wouldn't you be upset with the doctor for not even mentioning that this could be an option for you if you wait it out a bit?

In addition, technology evolves much faster than hitting a baseball. If you learn a new way to teach something, the old way is not necessarily wrong. He says he is moving away from those "old drills" because he found ways to teach it faster..great..how about letting people know that before they plop 100 bucks on your old DVDs.

[giantheart]

BTW, I purchased his DVDs over a year ago...and I knew he had video's on his site that augmented the stuff on the videos..so it isn't me I I feel sorry for. I got a lot of use out of learning the torque drill and numbers drill and the explanation of a rotational swing. If I knew he was updating the material, I think I still would have purchased it anyway over some of the other folks out there...But the original poster would have been screwed if he bought this stuff a month or two ago

[crazyhawk]

BTW, I purchased his DVDs over a year ago...and I knew he had video's on his site that augmented the stuff on the videos..so it isn't me I I feel sorry for. I got a lot of use out of learning the torque drill and numbers drill and the explanation of a rotational swing. If I knew he was updating the material, I think I still would have purchased it anyway over some of the other folks out there...But the original poster would have been screwed if he bought this stuff a month or two ago

Well, you changed the entire argument. This wasn't what the OP asked and it wasn't what Mud discussed. He basically said that anyone who purchased the video should get a new one for free. Ever. Not the past couple of months. I don't have a problem with your premise that someone who recently purchased should get a new one. But, we have no idea if they have even sold ten dvd's over the past three months. Who knows...those are soooo old that I doubt they sell many of them. So those ten would have a beef. But the rest, I don't.

[The Uncoach]

The problem I have is that right up until the end of September, he was still selling his old DVDs, knowing full well that he was planning on updating his material and no longer in favor of the the teaching techniques he was offering in those DVDs. That is borderline dishonest.

The individual drills/thoughts that are a part of the new "Core" DVD have been available for download from the Epstein site for quite a while. These are impact bag drills, swingaway drills and small ball machine drills. What he's appeared to have done is take the mishmash and translate it to an easy to follow program with a single hitter. I'm not sure how dishonest it is to offer a new product and try to sell it. That makes about as much sense as me being pissed at GM because they stopped selling the Avalanche and all I can get now is a 4 door fullsize cab with less potential utility.

In addition, technology evolves much faster than hitting a baseball. If you learn a new way to teach something, the old way is not necessarily wrong. He says he is moving away from those "old drills" because he found ways to teach it faster..great..how about letting people know that before they plop 100 bucks on your old DVDs.

The value in the old drills is that a good hitter who gets out of whack can self-correct to a large degree by going back to the original drills (even in the on-deck circle) and lathering, rinsing, repeating for a bit. The "new way" may be faster (I think it very well could be) to get from 0-60, but I'm not sure it would be wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not convinced that's what he's done.

[pstein]

I can't speak for Mud, but for myself, as a consumer, it is troubling. Here is why:

I don't think Jake got up one morning last June and all of sudden had a revelation that his material needed updating and that he learned a bunch of new ways to teach hitting overnight that made the old ways obsolete...It is far more probable that his thinking has evolved gradually, over the past ten years.

The problem I have is that right up until the end of September, he was still selling his old DVDs, knowing full well that he was planning on updating his material and no longer in favor of the the teaching techniques he was offering in those DVDs. That is borderline dishonest. At the very least he should have offered those people who recently purchased his materials a free update, or discount on the new material. Or, at the very least, give announce he was updating his stuff and give consumers a choice.

Honestly, I was borderline recommending Epstein in the past on these boards. I thought the stuff was easy to understand and apply... but after this stunt, I don't think I can honestly recommend him to anyone anymore. its not because he has evolved, I think that is good, but its because he held back what he knew from consumers.

Your comparison to Microsoft and other companies is not accurate. Technology companies announce when their new products are going to be introduced well in advance and then they lower the price of their old products in the months prior to the new releases. Can you imagine if Apple, suddenly introduced a new iphone6 next week without telling anyone..Don't you think the people who purchased the iphone5 the past two months would be upset?

Or a better example, lets say you go to the doctor to get your tonsils removed, not an emergency, but something you needed to get done..He performs the surgery like he has for the past ten years. You are in the hospital for a day. You have soar throat that lasts for five days, can't talk, miss work,etc. A month later, this doctor, just receives FDA approval to perform a new procedure, the zaps your tonsils out using a painless in-patient procedure and a magical laser zapping machine. The doctor is the world's expert at this procedure that he has been working on for 5 years. He was talking with the guys at the FDA that approve this stuff and he knew well in advance that this thing going to get approved in a month. Wouldn't you be upset with the doctor for not even mentioning that this could be an option for you if you wait it out a bit?

In addition, technology evolves much faster than hitting a baseball. If you learn a new way to teach something, the old way is not necessarily wrong. He says he is moving away from those "old drills" because he found ways to teach it faster..great..how about letting people know that before they plop 100 bucks on your old DVDs.

I agree, and I will also say that the older material appears to be much, much better than the newer material. I bought my Epstein material. It helped a lot. I've moved on to a higher level of information.

Epstein is an excellent foundation, especially compared to other things. There is better material out there.

[Cannonball]

Mud, I am going to disagree this time. What I respect is that someone who claims to be an expert actually puts his work on a DVD for the world to critique, break down, attack ... I'd say the same for Yeager. What I despise from some who profess to be experts is that they refuse to be held accountable for their work/what they reportly coach because they won't produce a DVD. Yet, they attack others. I'm waiting for some to produce any evidence of their work and waiting for a few in particular who are big into saying that they have all of the answers and are the only ones who can produce the MLB pattern and yet don't produce DVDs.

[Jake Patterson]

Mud, I am going to disagree this time. What I respect is that someone who claims to be an expert actually puts his work on a DVD for the world to critique, break down, attack ... I'd say the same for Yeager. What I despise from some who profess to be experts is that they refuse to be held accountable for their work/what they reportly coach because they won't produce a DVD. Yet, they attack others. I'm waiting for some to produce any evidence of their work and waiting for a few in particular who are big into saying that they have all of the answers and are the only ones who can produce the MLB pattern and yet don't produce DVDs.

Unfortunately, there are too many like this in the game... Personally, I feel it speaks directly to their character as people, and their inabilities as coaches. It's easy to hide behind the critique of others when you are unable, incapable, or unwilling to provide similar work.

[dominik]

Grrrrr, these kinds of posts frustrate me....no, not you in particular "dj", just the concept of "professional" instructors making money off of DVD sales, while using their students as experimental Guinea pigs as the work on the "latest and greatest" hitting method, in order to sell more videos to the unsuspecting.

Now this is not a rant on just Mike (or maybe now Jake his son), but just at the overall idea of it, or at least what it looks like so blatantly to me as just another marketing plan/scam.

IOWs, I just don't know how to spin this into a good light. I guess one could say that through continued research, they've discovered that what they were teaching previously was incomplete or even worse wrong.

What does that say to all of the kids they trained in the past, who spent their (or their parents') hard earned money learning from these experts?

"Oops, we made a mistake. Besides doing XYZ, you should now also be doing ABC on top of it....you can find ABC in our new video". Or even worse, "Hey, after extensive research, we found out that what we were teaching was somewhat incorrect, and as a result, have completely revamped our hitting method, and are presenting it in this brand new video".

Unless they're sending out their "new" videos for free to those who have already purchased their old ones, than I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth when reading about long time instructors coming out with "new" videos.....somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. :dismay:

How long will these new "Core" videos be good, until you "need" the next one they send out? I guess it's like the old saying goes, "Buyer beware"....

That all said and out of my system......

From his past material, Epstein is not a bad place to start, and if his new stuff is anything like is old stuff, there are probably move positives than negatives with regards to purchasing from them. IOWs, all-in-all, I think his stuff isn't too bad, all things considered.

does that also mean you are against a doctor using new methods because if he does the guys treated with the old methods he used (standard at the time) were screwed?
Does that mean an instructor cannot find out new things and update his material? I don't believe he changed it upside down either, maybe just a few tweeks.

[mudvnine]

Maybe this would have been a better post.....

Don't buy any DVDs unless you want your hitter to be a "cookie-cutter" of that training. If you think that is the training that best suits your hitter, excellent, but how do I know that that is the best instruction for your hitter's natural abilities?

The reason I became so fixated with learning the proper sequence/technique, and developed my own way to teach it, tailor it to the capabilities of each hitter (using drills I learned from others also), is because when I first started taking my oldest son to hitting "instructors" (I use that word loosely) about 14 years ago, they all taught ALL of their hitters the same way, and introduced the same "style" to all of them, simply using what I dubbed the "cookie-cutter" approach.

While this may work for some of their hitters, it obviously doesn't work for all of them. Over the years, I have come to learn that what works for "Johnny", doesn't always work for "Jimmy", so I adjust my teaching/instruction to that of the learner, and don't expect the learner to be able to understand or accomplish something, simply because I showed it to him one particular way.

If one is of the philosophy that all learners are equally gifted and can all do and learn things all the same, than by all means.....go out and grab a DVD. As to which one, it really doesn't matter, because all you're getting is a generic product that may have worked for the instructor himself as a player, or a couple of the instructor's students, but it's merely a crap shoot that it will work for your hitter, and make him/her the best that they can be.....

Encinitas' post in spot on with regards to what I'm speaking of.....

Tradosaurus, for most of us this is about perhaps getting our kids, or students if you have that, to be able to play at a level that they otherwise shouldn't be able to play at, (all things being equal). In other words maximizing their natural god-given gifts whatever that is. For some kids maybe that means getting to play HS ball when they otherwise wouldn't have. For some perhaps qualifying for D2 ball instead of D3. Or an independant league player, learns the stuff and becomes baseball america player of the year for Independent baseball, and at 28 gets his first shot at affiliated baseball, and sets a team record for RBIs.

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp...=.jsp&sid=t538


So matching up to the best is clearly very important if we are going to maximize our hitters capabilities. Do you know how many parents on these sites say "just read the Ted Williams book" and their kid's swings end up not looking very good? Not only that, Ted himself was not able to get his own guys to do it, with and without the book. If you think it's as easy as looking at Teddy Ballgame's (my dog's name) material I'd say you have to go further if you are not matching up. Assuming you test your hitters swings against elite swings.

So the argument here is more along the lines of this. The sciency types are frustrated that we don't take the time to understand enough of the kiniesiolgy/physics/bio-mechanics etc. And the practical do-ers are frustrated that the sciency types cannot seem to get this completely vital movement in their hitters and want to know why so much time is spent on explaining why and how the swings works and very little time on fixing their hitters. There is zero evidence at this point that any PhDs are getting the pattern taught. So while I won't question the force plate measurements and such, I have to at least question the drills, and the goals given to each hitter which seem to be leading to the sub-optimal swings.

If you believe that buying the cookie-cutter DVD instruction for your hitter will be "maximizing their natural god-given gifts whatever that is", than by all means, buy it. But I still stand by my original statement, "Buyer beware......."

Now if you all continued reading my original post, you would have noticed that I also wrote....

That all said and out of my system......

From his past material, Epstein is not a bad place to start, and if his new stuff is anything like is old stuff, there are probably move positives than negatives with regards to purchasing from them. IOWs, all-in-all, I think his stuff isn't too bad, all things considered.

....but just don't be too disappointed if it doesn't take your hitter fully to where it is you believe he should go, or who he should eventually be able to duplicate (or at least be close).

There's a whole thread of a DVD product where the instructor has not been able to supply proof that his instruction will get hitters to "maximizing their natural god-given gifts", when compared to the "gold standard", and he's even had pros and semi-pros to work with.....will Epstein's stuff get a hitter there or closer, I don't know.....guess it's all a matter of how a particular hitter learns, and if you happened to buy the material to match his learning style and physical capabilities.

Does Epstein have "before and after" clips of hitters he's worked with....since I think he does, are the "afters" something that you'd like your hitter to look like? If they are, buy the DVDs, if not.....keep looking, studying, swinging, and learning.


Best of luck with whatever or whomever you choose,
mud -