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Mike Epstein new dvds? "The Core Program"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    Don't buy any DVDs unless you want your hitter to be a "cookie-cutter" of that training. If you think that is the training that best suits your hitter, excellent, but how do I know that that is the best instruction for your hitter's natural abilities?

    The reason I became so fixated with learning the proper sequence/technique, and developed my own way to teach it, tailor it to the capabilities of each hitter (using drills I learned from others also), is because when I first started taking my oldest son to hitting "instructors" (I use that word loosely) about 14 years ago, they all taught ALL of their hitters the same way, and introduced the same "style" to all of them, simply using what I dubbed the "cookie-cutter" approach.

    While this may work for some of their hitters, it obviously doesn't work for all of them
    Totally agree that before you buy the DVD, look at the model students and see if those students look the way you want them to. I'll give Epstein credit. He at least shows you "before" and "after" students much better than many other instructors, so you know what you're getting into. My frustration of course is being one who told Epstein that aspects of what he was teaching was wrong, and then had LOTS of Epstein disciples tell me that I didn't understand, that Mike didn't mean it, that I flat out didn't get it, etc. After years of bashing heads with Epstein folks, to now have them come out now and admit some of us were right, well, sorry, I'm just not going to endorse such a product. It might be good now, but for me that ship has sailed long ago.

    But in regards to cookie cutter approach, I'm more of a cookie man than many here for the young kids. I absolutely believe there are core movements the kids should learn, and a cookie cutter approach works just fine for the vast majority of kids. OK, by high school and later, a little personalization is fine, but most young players need to learn the basics, and giving a standard approach has few downsides, my opinion.

    Heck, teachers use cookie cutter approaches for their classroom by and large (they don't personalize instruction for every child), yet that seems to work pretty well in general. Certainly the golf instructors at young ages go for the cookie cutter approach, and there are a lot of PGA level swings for kids 12 years old and even younger. Sure, the cues you use with each kid will differ based on their swing flaws, no doubt there, but the model swing most golf instructors use is by and large the same one. Again, this doesn't necessarily apply to older players, but for young ones, I see very little reason to personalize the swings. There is plenty of time later to develop an individual style.

    But as Mud said, best of luck whatever method you choose.

    -JJA
    The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

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    • #17
      Mud, you talk a lot about cookie cutter, but I would say that Epstein is one of the least cookie cutters out there. They don't care how you stand, do you stride, the different types of strides, etc. Jake cares about where you are when your hitter gets to touch touch until the power V. Every hitting instructor is going to have main tenets in what they believe. Epstein calls everything else "your own personal style". So, Epstein hitters shouldn't look all alike if the instructor is doing their job right while instructing their hitter.
      Last edited by crazyhawk; 10-25-2012, 06:29 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by crazyhawk View Post
        Mud, you talk a lot about cookie cutter, but I would say that Epsteinn is one of the least cookie cutters out there. They don't care how you stand, do you stride, the different types of strides, etc. Jake cares about where you are when your hitter gets to touch touch until the power V. Every hitting instructor is going to have main tenets in what they believe. Epstein calls everything else "your own personal style". So, Epstein hitters shouldn't look all alike if the instructor is doing their job right while instructing their hitter.
        I agree!.....the one thing I will say is that if the new stuff requires a lot of apparatus to drill and practice, it will lose some of the simplicity that I loved about it

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
          Mud, I am going to disagree this time. What I respect is that someone who claims to be an expert actually puts his work on a DVD for the world to critique, break down, attack ... I'd say the same for Yeager. What I despise from some who profess to be experts is that they refuse to be held accountable for their work/what they reportly coach because they won't produce a DVD. Yet, they attack others. I'm waiting for some to produce any evidence of their work and waiting for a few in particular who are big into saying that they have all of the answers and are the only ones who can produce the MLB pattern and yet don't produce DVDs.
          So do you feel Booth should produce a DVD because he has done EXACTLY what you claim you despise? Producing a DVD is the new requirement? I can think of at least one self proclaimed hitting expert who has a DVD out that is an absolute TRAIN WRECK and another who's DVD is barely worth using as a coaster under a cold beer at an all night poker tourney in my garage. It is a shame that we are not allowed to critique, break down, attack those DVD's without getting our hands slapped for breaking the rules. Yeager had a chance to validate his teachings but instead disappeared when he was challenged. I would put Mud's knowledge of the swing against anybody on this board and I doubt he is producing DVD's anytime soon. Granted Mud isn't claiming to be an expert but I read where Booth claimed it and from reading his stuff he believes it too. You have coached for a long time and I have read many times how your coaching expertise has produced great success. Where is your DVD? Maybe you and Booth can hook up and put out a DVD together. :gt

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          • #20
            As an example Mud, I have two boys that I have taught the Epstein principles of hitting. Each one looks completely different as hitters, to the naked eye. However, when you watch them on slow motion analysis software, once they get to touch touch....they are in almost the exact spots and have the same swing. How they get their is very dependent on the hitter. As an instructor, you have to have some general boundaries obviously, but I think that not having a cookie cutter "look and feel" is one of the strengths of his program.

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            • #21
              well I think none of the DVDs can go as much into detail as we do here or at BBD because it has to be directed at relative newbies. most guys here in the forum have had a background of several years studying epstein, englishbey, yeager and so on (even those that thrash them now). thus we take a lot of stuff out of those DVDs for granted and act like this is common sense.

              however if you watch kids you see that it is not.

              A lot of the finer points like late coil, leg actions, overlap and so on are very important to get to a high level pattern however it is hard to introduce if the basics are not there yet.

              I still would buy a DVD of a guy like swingbuilder or board member in an instant. hopefully one of them someday puts in the effort to make a structured (very important) 90 minutes video
              I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by crazyhawk View Post
                As an example Mud, I have two boys that I have taught the Epstein principles of hitting. Each one looks completely different as hitters, to the naked eye. However, when you watch them on slow motion analysis software, once they get to touch touch....they are in almost the exact spots and have the same swing. How they get their is very dependent on the hitter. As an instructor, you have to have some general boundaries obviously, but I think that not having a cookie cutter "look and feel" is one of the strengths of his program.
                crazyhawk,

                Yeah, in terms of some personalization the program allows it, but on the flip side it's easy to spot an Epstein trained hitter (at least it used to be before the new material came out - can't say now since I don't know the new material). Every now and then I'll see a kid at a faraway travel tournament and immediately recognize the "Epstein swing". I'll ask the parents of the kid if they trained with Epstein or an Epstein disciple and I've always been right in my guesses. Can't speak for mud here, but I that's generally what he is getting at, the fact you can sometimes identify Epstein hitters by their core swing, which sounds a lot like a cooke cutter approach. This really shouldn't surprise anyone. You train with the Epstein methods long enough, you'll look like an Epstein hitter, for better or worse.

                -JJA
                The outcome of our children is infinitely more important than the outcome of any game they will ever play

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mr. potato head View Post
                  So do you feel Booth should produce a DVD because he has done EXACTLY what you claim you despise? Producing a DVD is the new requirement? I can think of at least one self proclaimed hitting expert who has a DVD out that is an absolute TRAIN WRECK and another who's DVD is barely worth using as a coaster under a cold beer at an all night poker tourney in my garage. It is a shame that we are not allowed to critique, break down, attack those DVD's without getting our hands slapped for breaking the rules. Yeager had a chance to validate his teachings but instead disappeared when he was challenged. I would put Mud's knowledge of the swing against anybody on this board and I doubt he is producing DVD's anytime soon. Granted Mud isn't claiming to be an expert but I read where Booth claimed it and from reading his stuff he believes it too. You have coached for a long time and I have read many times how your coaching expertise has produced great success. Where is your DVD? Maybe you and Booth can hook up and put out a DVD together. :gt
                  MPH, really? I came on this site and made posts as if I were some expert? MPH, you would have to go back a year or more to find any post where I posted on hitting. At that, perhaps you would find one or two posts in a thread and then have to go back further. I did post pictures on this site as as others of some of my students including my child. I'd estimate that the last time I posted video of my child was her sophomore year of HS so around 2008-2009. (In fairness, I'll try to go back and find any expert posts I've made with regards to hitting.) Remember for years, I actually claimed to be an "ex-expert." LOL! The only posts I have made with regards to hitting are those when I know the agenda of some posters has led them to misprepresent other's work. BTW, isn't it ironic that you would suggest that Jake and I are so unfair.

                  Per Mud, I believe that Mud has made it clear that he doesn't profess to be an expert. He is an active coach and so, most of us can follow his works with players he has hands on work with. For sure, Mud has never made the claim to have all of the answers. BTW, MPH, (HNP). I can't recall any time you have posted video of your work/players.

                  Per Booth, you have been active at this longer than I have. You recall J.Booth posting that series of videos explaining his thoughts and while not a DVD, he put out a series of videos explaining a lot of his thoughts and has remained consistent with those beliefs he supported then. Of course, if I'm in error, J. Booth will correct me.

                  MPH, you know those who claim to have all of the answers and yet, no video. Only attacks on those who don't believe as they do. If they have it so "right" why not produce the video and make serious money while showing the world that they have found the golden grail of hitting?

                  I'll go now and take a look at the last time I made a post on hitting where I claimed to be an expert.
                  Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                  I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
                    I can't recall any time you have posted video of your work/players.
                    We have moderators of a hitting fundamentals 'forum' criticizing posters of their own forum for simply posting their thoughts, and making some kind of video requirement? You guys might want to rethink that.
                    Last edited by songtitle; 10-25-2012, 07:59 AM. Reason: clarify
                    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                      We have moderators of a hitting fundamentals 'forum' criticizing posters of their own forum for simply posting their thoughts? That's weird. You guys might want to rethink that.
                      As a moderator of a forum myself, I have no problem with moderators being involved as posters providing their own personal thoughts, too.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
                        MPH, really? I came on this site and made posts as if I were some expert? MPH, you would have to go back a year or more to find any post where I posted on hitting. At that, perhaps you would find one or two posts in a thread and then have to go back further. I did post pictures on this site as as others of some of my students including my child. I'd estimate that the last time I posted video of my child was her sophomore year of HS so around 2008-2009. (In fairness, I'll try to go back and find any expert posts I've made with regards to hitting.) Remember for years, I actually claimed to be an "ex-expert." LOL! The only posts I have made with regards to hitting are those when I know the agenda of some posters has led them to misprepresent other's work. BTW, isn't it ironic that you would suggest that Jake and I are so unfair.

                        Per Mud, I believe that Mud has made it clear that he doesn't profess to be an expert. He is an active coach and so, most of us can follow his works with players he has hands on work with. For sure, Mud has never made the claim to have all of the answers. BTW, MPH, (HNP). I can't recall any time you have posted video of your work/players.

                        Per Booth, you have been active at this longer than I have. You recall J.Booth posting that series of videos explaining his thoughts and while not a DVD, he put out a series of videos explaining a lot of his thoughts and has remained consistent with those beliefs he supported then. Of course, if I'm in error, J. Booth will correct me.

                        MPH, you know those who claim to have all of the answers and yet, no video. Only attacks on those who don't believe as they do. If they have it so "right" why not produce the video and make serious money while showing the world that they have found the golden grail of hitting?

                        I'll go now and take a look at the last time I made a post on hitting where I claimed to be an expert.
                        First off, I said COACHING not hitting and I remember more than once reading you claim/imply how accomplished you are/were at it. Also, where did I ever mention Jake or you in my post wrt being fair? I guess you just assumed I was talking about you and Jake? Interesting. To deny that certain hitting experts material is off limits to dissect is disingenuous to say the least and you know it. You posted your requirements about the experts requiring a DVD if they are going to claim the title but I guess Booth gets a pass? Tell me you hold him to the same standard...

                        Curious what my hitters have to do with anything? I have NEVER claimed to be a hitting expert or some well accomplished coach so your response is silly. I have said all along I am a Dad trying to learn the best way to teach my kids and the teams I coach. Are you going to ask everyone to produce video of their hitters if they comment on the board? I guess JJA is on that list right? Of course not but it makes a nice smoke screen around the fact that you are calling out a certain someone but won't hold your boy booth and others to the same standard.


                        Lastly, Booth doesn't know me so I don't know how he feels I have been at this longer than you. Booth and apparently you are misinformed and should try to get your facts straight at the next behind the scenes tea party you attend to talk about who's who on the internet.


                        Them there is the facts

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                          We have moderators of a hitting fundamentals 'forum' criticizing posters of their own forum for simply posting their thoughts? That's weird. You guys might want to rethink that.
                          Song, so you are saying that the moderators on the other sites you belong to don't defend themselves when someone makes a post calling them out? On one forum you belong to and in response to Dr. Yeager, one moderator told Doc to "not say anything" if he isn't willing to come back and defend his ideas. Of course you didn't have a problem with that. Also, certain members have consistently made it a habit to demand video, as on this site and others, from someone like Yeager for his work and yet, they don't don't hold themselves to the same standard to demonstrate their work.

                          The caveat I included in my post that MPH took exception to was concerning those that claim to be experts. While never claiming to be an expert, I have posted some of the hitters that I have worked with mostly my child. Others are consistently critical of others and yet don't ever post any of their students/players. I guess it is not how I was raised to continually and consistently attack others, profess to have a better way and do so in anonymity.
                          Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                          I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by crazyhawk View Post
                            Mud, you talk a lot about cookie cutter, but I would say that Epstein is one of the least cookie cutters out there. They don't care how you stand, do you stride, the different types of strides, etc. Jake cares about where you are when your hitter gets to touch touch until the power V. Every hitting instructor is going to have main tenets in what they believe. Epstein calls everything else "your own personal style". So, Epstein hitters shouldn't look all alike if the instructor is doing their job right while instructing their hitter.
                            "chawk", of the DVDs out there that I've seen (and I've seen a lot), Epstein is probably the least hazardous to the development of a young hitter and why I said above, his stuff "is not a bad place to start".

                            Now admittedly, I don't know too much of the "new" stuff that Jake is doing or changing the program to, but as far as Mike's teachings, he was indeed very "cookie-cutter" like, or at least I could go to area ballparks and point out kids that were "Epstein trained". Granted, there certainly could have been some kids that used his training, who didn't look like some of the others, and I wouldn't be able to pick them out, but there were quite a few that I was able pick out, and why I believe Epstein (at least Mike's works) feel into that category.

                            Also, while "cookie-cutter" certainly does have a negative connotation to it, that doesn't mean that it's always bad. Some of the Epstein trained kids I saw were pretty darn good hitters, and his system obviously worked for them at the age level that they were at. However, I know that not everyone who purchased the DVDs would say the same thing.....it's just the nature of the beast.
                            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
                              I guess it is not how I was raised to continually and consistently attack others, profess to have a better way and do so in anonymity.
                              Are you attacking forum members for being anonymous? If so, you may want to rethink this.

                              Of course you didn't have a problem with that
                              I have no idea what you're talking about here.

                              certain members have consistently made it a habit to demand video
                              I assume you're not talking about me here. I think people (even experts) should be able to defend their ideas in writing in this forum.
                              Last edited by songtitle; 10-25-2012, 08:12 AM.
                              efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                MPH, I apologize. The thread was about hitting as well as my statement about experts and so, when you mentioned, "coaching" I took it you meant coaching hitting.

                                Yes, I am an expert when it comes to coaching in general. You know why? Because I know the "secret to coaching." The secret is the kids. As I have often stated on this site, no coach is any good with the players and parents. Per my success, I have often made that clear that I am not special. Now, if you want that on DVD, I can do so but ...

                                Per "my stuff" on coaching, I have provided that to anyone who has ever asked. I'd estimate that I have emailed my stuff to a couple of hundred members. I have also provided that "stuff" to other HS and college coaches. None of any of that matters if you can't get the players to buy into the system.

                                Now back to the topic.
                                Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                                I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

                                Comment

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