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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    Yes, the wheel would be the time. Of course, you can't predict whether the opposition will have the wheel on. I've only used the play probably less than once a year. It's because I don't think to do it. I'd like to use it more. I think it has more potential as a bunt/slash/hit and run: no outs, runners on 1st and 2nd. Runners steal, the infielders are running all over the place either defending the bunt or covering for the steal. Not necessarily sure whether it is more effective or less effective after the batter shows bunt on a previous pitch. Could use it with just a runner on first as well. Guys don't sac bunt real well, some guys, so they may have more success in advancing the runner on a slash. I think is also helpful as a potential weapon: if the other team knows you might do it then you are more likely to get a successful sac bunt and not have the fielder nail the lead runner.

    Mainly I don't think to use it but I think it has great potential as an effective play.
    If you have us R1 and R2 w 0 out..close game...we will slow it down..could run ss in front with a wheel pitchout...next play a wheel pick to 2b..maybe throw over to 1b just to keep things honest...then step off.. inside move..etc.. then true wheel..by the time the ball comes to the plate we might have the step we need..if u slash we r dead!

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by StanTheMan View Post
    Anyone have Juan Encarnacion's email address? I wonder if he has any thoughts on balls rocketing towards fielders who are tricked into standing close to the plate or charging.
    Baseball is a very dangerous game, no doubt about it. The danger is underrated. Encarnacion got tricked in to standing in the on deck circle and getting nailed by a teammate's foul ball. A minor league first base coach was killed by a foul ball. I've seen players run into chain link fences and just get demolished. Catchers leaving in ambulances on collisions. Middle infielders getting hit in the face on a relay throw they lost in the lights. Hell, I hit a guy right between the eyes coming into 2nd from 3 feet with an all out throw (he didn't slide) and the ball ricocheted-the left fielder almost caught it.

    Some rule changes are appropriate to ameliorate the danger: base coaches wearing helmets, no head first slides into home, etc. Does the bunt/slash fall in to that category? The only reason it would is because it would be viewed that a slash is an intentional play whereas someone hitting a foul ball doesn't do it intentionally.

    It would be interesting though to ask someone like Encarnacion about the dangers of the slash. If you didn't mind him first laughing in your face.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    Ah I hear ya man..that all being said..I did try to kee it on track and respond and said that a good time to use it would be if you thought they would wheel. If it is a play you can run without being chastised for it, and can use it under control without your hitters taking purposeful pull field hacks, when would that situation be in your opinion? I get that at this point we are talking about pepper-type swings?
    Yes, the wheel would be the time. Of course, you can't predict whether the opposition will have the wheel on. I've only used the play probably less than once a year. It's because I don't think to do it. I'd like to use it more. I think it has more potential as a bunt/slash/hit and run: no outs, runners on 1st and 2nd. Runners steal, the infielders are running all over the place either defending the bunt or covering for the steal. Not necessarily sure whether it is more effective or less effective after the batter shows bunt on a previous pitch. Could use it with just a runner on first as well. Guys don't sac bunt real well, some guys, so they may have more success in advancing the runner on a slash. I think is also helpful as a potential weapon: if the other team knows you might do it then you are more likely to get a successful sac bunt and not have the fielder nail the lead runner.

    Mainly I don't think to use it but I think it has great potential as an effective play.

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  • StanTheMan
    replied
    Anyone have Juan Encarnacion's email address? I wonder if he has any thoughts on balls rocketing towards fielders who are tricked into standing close to the plate or charging.
    Last edited by StanTheMan; 10-29-2012, 07:51 PM.

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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    That's just it. It's not even perceived to be risky or bush league and I've been around the game for several years all over the country although granted not that much at the youth levels. I respect people's opinions, different viewpoints, and experiences. I've been wrong before. What's interesting to me is that a relatively mundane question about when to use the slash has become something much more interesting to me.

    The bunt/slash is just a play, like the sacrifice bunt, the double steal, or the double cut. No more and no less. Granted, it's used very infrequently. That's probably part of it. Somebody didn't know it existed, sees it, and thinks, holy crap, that's unfair and dangerous, especially if it worked. The first curve ballers probably got a hard time, too. " Hey there, that's an illegal pitch boy. Might kill someone."

    I have this in the Reefer Madness category or banning tag at recess category. I'm not convincing anyone here and nobody certainly is convincing me on this topic. I suppose we all just need to go to arbitration and ask some people we respect and who are knowledgable. Hairy backed little league coaches who win "the big one" year after year and like to hold court up at the pizza parlor with their assistants after every game don't qualify.
    Ah I hear ya man..that all being said..I did try to kee it on track and respond and said that a good time to use it would be if you thought they would wheel. If it is a play you can run without being chastised for it, and can use it under control without your hitters taking purposeful pull field hacks, when would that situation be in your opinion? I get that at this point we are talking about pepper-type swings?

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
    If you're coaching in the same league year after year, whether it be HSV or something else, it's best not to run this play.
    Let's not get hung up on whether it's risky or bush-league. All that matters is some (or many) of your repeat opponents may perceive that it's risky or bush-league.
    You never want to give people extra reasons to want to beat you, or denigrate your program.
    Roothog's situation is different. Five years from now he won't be playing the same opponents he's playing now.

    I cannot remember seeing this play in action. Perhaps it happened. (I have CRS.)
    That's just it. It's not even perceived to be risky or bush league and I've been around the game for several years all over the country although granted not that much at the youth levels. I respect people's opinions, different viewpoints, and experiences. I've been wrong before. What's interesting to me is that a relatively mundane question about when to use the slash has become something much more interesting to me.

    The bunt/slash is just a play, like the sacrifice bunt, the double steal, or the double cut. No more and no less. Granted, it's used very infrequently. That's probably part of it. Somebody didn't know it existed, sees it, and thinks, holy crap, that's unfair and dangerous, especially if it worked. The first curve ballers probably got a hard time, too. " Hey there, that's an illegal pitch boy. Might kill someone."

    I have this in the Reefer Madness category or banning tag at recess category. I'm not convincing anyone here and nobody certainly is convincing me on this topic. I suppose we all just need to go to arbitration and ask some people we respect and who are knowledgable. Hairy backed little league coaches who win "the big one" year after year and like to hold court up at the pizza parlor with their assistants after every game don't qualify.

    Leave a comment:


  • CoolHandLuke
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    Geez fellows, read the posts. "Most..won't pull stunts like that"? "Deadly"? "Catastrophic"? "Trash"? "Bush"? What are we gonna do, stop throwing curves because they're scary and you have to aim that at the batter's ear and it's dangerous because, uh, what if one of them doesn't actually break or something?
    You equate calling the butcher play the same as throwing curve balls? Actually on second thought you should use the butcher boy. It probably more accurately reflects your coaching style.

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  • skipper5
    replied
    delete--double post

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  • skipper5
    replied
    If you're coaching in the same league year after year, whether it be HSV or something else, it's best not to run this play.
    Let's not get hung up on whether it's risky or bush-league. All that matters is some (or many) of your repeat opponents may perceive that it's risky or bush-league.
    You never want to give people extra reasons to want to beat you, or denigrate your program.
    Roothog's situation is different. Five years from now he won't be playing the same opponents he's playing now.

    I cannot remember seeing this play in action. Perhaps it happened. (I have CRS.)
    Last edited by skipper5; 10-29-2012, 05:19 PM.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by JJA View Post
    Interesting takes. I actually see it from time to time and it really hasn't been a big deal. It's not like the #4 batter is slashing, it's usually the lead off little guy who isn't always the most powerful hitter. We had a lead off lefty hitter in our league who was an excellent bunter. He would draw the third baseman in with a fake bunt, pull it back and then dunk a little floater over the third basemans head for a base hit. It was a very effective technique that I admired the kid for. Excellent bat control. I don't remember anyone getting on him for it.
    Pretty much my take. Never crossed my mind that it is inappropriate and I've run it by a few in my circle who were surprised there is an issue.

    I think what we have here is a "Reefer Madness" phenomena. Since it's Halloween, I'll be on the lookout on youtube for " Dr. Bunt and Mr. Slasher": "He's deadly, he's catastrophic, he's trashy.And he's coming to get your children on a ball field near you."

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  • JJA
    replied
    Interesting takes. I actually see it from time to time and it really hasn't been a big deal. It's not like the #4 batter is slashing, it's usually the lead off little guy who isn't always the most powerful hitter. We had a lead off lefty hitter in our league who was an excellent bunter. He would draw the third baseman in with a fake bunt, pull it back and then dunk a little floater over the third basemans head for a base hit. It was a very effective technique that I admired the kid for. Excellent bat control. I don't remember anyone getting on him for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Geez fellows, read the posts. "Most..won't pull stunts like that"? "Deadly"? "Catastrophic"? "Trash"? "Bush"? What are we gonna do, stop throwing curves because they're scary and you have to aim that at the batter's ear and it's dangerous because, uh, what if one of them doesn't actually break or something?

    It's kind of fun to hear your perspectives, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Standballdad
    replied
    Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
    We've been through the whole discussion before and it is known that I use the butcher boy play extensively. Some coaches don't like it and they let me hear about it. If they want to throw at my kids, as TG would have them do, I would argue that one play is legal, the other isn't. One is intended to do damage, the other simply has it as a byproduct possibility. rarely do the charging corner infielders come much closer than the pitcher who is far more vulnerable. However, once last year at a W/S event, I had the call on and almost panicked when the third baseman cam to within TEN FEET of home plate. Luckily, my kid drove the ball through the hole that the shortstop left to cover third and it wasn't close to the third baseman. The other coach threw a fit and wanted my kid thrown out of the game. The ump had to calm him down and explain that there was no rule against it. Where they played (michigan, maybe?) the rules routinely prohibited it. In leagues like that, is it common for 3b to charge that close? I guess if that were common in the baseball I see, I would never call it and I would completely understand some of the really strong opinions against it, but I just never see kids charge that far up the line.
    My only question is, is it that important to call such a play when the consequences could be catastrophic? or even deadly? Too me its not worth the risk no matter how small you might think it is. The advantage a slash and bunt might give too a hitter is just not worth it. Let the hitter swing away. Especially with the use of aluminum bats. I would not want that on my conscience if something did happen.

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  • CoolHandLuke
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    So when is a good time to call this play? What is the criteria a coach looks for as opposed to letting the batter hit, some sort of bunt, or the hit and run?
    Stay classy, don't do it. You'll find most well coached teams won't pull stunts like that. It's border-line bush and it reflects negatively on the coach. When you call that play, you're knowingly and purposely putting a kid/kids in danger of a serious injury. For what, a lousy single. Not only will the other team and general spectators think your trash, half the parents on your own team will quietly share that opinion.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    Can't really compare those situations, as a team will never put on the "let's hit a popup in that one spot where there could be confusion and an injury" play.
    I don't know, if you've seen some of my teams hit you might accuse me of putting this play on regularly. And then TG643 would be drilling,drilling, drilling: "Hey that's 2 pops to right center in a row, the next guy is GOING DOWN."

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