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The bunt and slash

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
    We've been through the whole discussion before and it is known that I use the butcher boy play extensively. Some coaches don't like it and they let me hear about it. If they want to throw at my kids, as TG would have them do, I would argue that one play is legal, the other isn't. One is intended to do damage, the other simply has it as a byproduct possibility. rarely do the charging corner infielders come much closer than the pitcher who is far more vulnerable. However, once last year at a W/S event, I had the call on and almost panicked when the third baseman cam to within TEN FEET of home plate. Luckily, my kid drove the ball through the hole that the shortstop left to cover third and it wasn't close to the third baseman. The other coach threw a fit and wanted my kid thrown out of the game. The ump had to calm him down and explain that there was no rule against it. Where they played (michigan, maybe?) the rules routinely prohibited it. In leagues like that, is it common for 3b to charge that close? I guess if that were common in the baseball I see, I would never call it and I would completely understand some of the really strong opinions against it, but I just never see kids charge that far up the line.
    Sounds like the Michigan coach was taking advantage of the no slash rule (he thought) and having his boy get ridiculously close to the batter in a bunt situation. To get to 10 feet he had to be pretty close to begin with so, in this instance, the no slash rule actually made things more dangerous.

    I know this is all a lot of talk about nothing really important. But in yesterday's 14 year old game that had the slash and the suicide squeeze the 3b coach yelled at his players-twice- "wear it, wear it" on inside pitches they were stumbling out of the way of. I don't believe in this but apparently everybody else thinks it's okay. I mean, what legal recourse could a coach possibly have if his player was injured by an hbp and the coach is teaching them to get hit? Is this common in the 12u and below as well?

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  • Roothog66
    replied
    We've been through the whole discussion before and it is known that I use the butcher boy play extensively. Some coaches don't like it and they let me hear about it. If they want to throw at my kids, as TG would have them do, I would argue that one play is legal, the other isn't. One is intended to do damage, the other simply has it as a byproduct possibility. rarely do the charging corner infielders come much closer than the pitcher who is far more vulnerable. However, once last year at a W/S event, I had the call on and almost panicked when the third baseman cam to within TEN FEET of home plate. Luckily, my kid drove the ball through the hole that the shortstop left to cover third and it wasn't close to the third baseman. The other coach threw a fit and wanted my kid thrown out of the game. The ump had to calm him down and explain that there was no rule against it. Where they played (michigan, maybe?) the rules routinely prohibited it. In leagues like that, is it common for 3b to charge that close? I guess if that were common in the baseball I see, I would never call it and I would completely understand some of the really strong opinions against it, but I just never see kids charge that far up the line.

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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    Yes, it's very dangerous for the pitcher and I've seen a lot of nasty stuff where kids were lucky to be alive. No exaggeration. Admittedly, I've never seen anyone get hit in their prosthetic leg although I did see Harrison Ford punch a one-armed man in the mouth.
    You should sell HM the rights to that story man, or at least tell us!

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    Nah, everyone teaches up the middle or hit where it is pitched, but not using the hit the pitcher in the head terminology..right..um..Mud?
    One of our pitchers got hit in the middle of the chest on a rocket which dropped straight down, next to the kid who dropped like a sack of hammers. He was ok, now wears the heart shield. My kid hit a pitcher square on his planted kneecap, it made a sickening sound. It turns out the leg was prosthetic, so he was in less pain than he would have been otherwise. There have been some wicked shots up through the box this fall already, and this is just the 11's..next year its the same small 50 70 field and these kids will be throwing and hitting even harder.
    Yes, it's very dangerous for the pitcher and I've seen a lot of nasty stuff where kids were lucky to be alive. No exaggeration. Admittedly, I've never seen anyone get hit in their prosthetic leg although I did see Harrison Ford punch a one-armed man in the mouth. I'm not out for hurting anyone but I think hitting line drives up the middle is well accepted.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    OK, the bold is a good point, but I'd rather we agree that we, "don't have a problem with leagues banning the slash".....just in case one gets squared up, and all odds line up that might just happen to catch a kid in the chops with a ball off the bat when he happens to be standing 50' or possibly even less to the hitter.
    Right, it's fine to ban it. No problems, just pointing out it's overdoing it a bit. We could also teach those third basemen not to be halfway to the plate. Hell, come to think of it, the runner at third is in danger. Of course he has a helmet. Me, I'd rather have the glove.

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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    Well, not necessarily those words, but I do tell them to "hit it where it's pitched"......and if that's "down the middle", than that means "hit it right back up the middle", and that's typically where the pitcher just happens to be standing.

    So indirectly, I guess I'm guilty as charged........
    Nah, everyone teaches up the middle or hit where it is pitched, but not using the hit the pitcher in the head terminology..right..um..Mud?
    One of our pitchers got hit in the middle of the chest on a rocket which dropped straight down, next to the kid who dropped like a sack of hammers. He was ok, now wears the heart shield. My kid hit a pitcher square on his planted kneecap, it made a sickening sound. It turns out the leg was prosthetic, so he was in less pain than he would have been otherwise. There have been some wicked shots up through the box this fall already, and this is just the 11's..next year its the same small 50 70 field and these kids will be throwing and hitting even harder.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    "Hit it hard up the middle" is a great thought and helps one hit the ball hard everywhere. But this is another instance where it is part of normal game-play. Although I have never heard the instruction to hit it at the pitcher's forehead..is that a cue you use?
    It's a common phrase, "hit the ball hard at the pitcher's forehead". Charley Lau Sr said it 45 years ago among others.Do you have a problem with it? A batter should try to hit line drives to the middle of the field.

    As you say, hit it hard up the middle is a good and common phrase. Of course it is part of normal game-play. Every time a pitcher throws a pitch from 60 feet
    he should and has to be ready for a hard hit ball at him. And every 36 games when a bunt and slash is called a first or third baseman playing 70 feet from the batter should be ready to catch a hard hit ball.

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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    "Hit it hard up the middle" is a great thought and helps one hit the ball hard everywhere. But this is another instance where it is part of normal game-play. Although I have never heard the instruction to hit it at the pitcher's forehead..is that a cue you use?
    Well, not necessarily those words, but I do tell them to "hit it where it's pitched"......and if that's "down the middle", than that means "hit it right back up the middle", and that's typically where the pitcher just happens to be standing.

    So indirectly, I guess I'm guilty as charged........

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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    So should we avoid teaching batters to hit the ball up the middle, to hit the ball hard right at the pitcher's forehead?

    And "as long as the hitter gives a recognition sign" is a pretty big if for a 14 year old-it doesn't ensure he will go brain dead 5 seconds later. Wilson Ramos almost killed Roger Bernandina this year on a squeeze at the mlb level.

    And the "slash" part of the bunt and slash is a choppy semi-flat footed swing and not a regular swing. I guess we could argue until the cows came home. Like I said, I don't have a problem with leagues banning the slash-just pointing out that it is not all that dangerous relative to everything else.
    OK, the bold is a good point, but I'd rather we agree that we, "don't have a problem with leagues banning the slash".....just in case one gets squared up, and all odds line up that might just happen to catch a kid in the chops with a ball off the bat when he happens to be standing 50' or possibly even less to the hitter.

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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    So should we avoid teaching batters to hit the ball up the middle, to hit the ball hard right at the pitcher's forehead?
    "Hit it hard up the middle" is a great thought and helps one hit the ball hard everywhere. But this is another instance where it is part of normal game-play. Although I have never heard the instruction to hit it at the pitcher's forehead..is that a cue you use?

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by raptor View Post
    Can't really compare those situations, as a team will never put on the "let's hit a popup in that one spot where there could be confusion and an injury" play. One situation is part of normal game play, the other (slash) is bringing the potential for serious injury into play willingly. As for the suicide, as long as the hitter picks up the suicide sign and gives a recognition sign then that play isn't dangerous...if the coach isnt 100% sure the hitter recognizes it, he should wipe it.
    So should we avoid teaching batters to hit the ball up the middle, to hit the ball hard right at the pitcher's forehead?

    And "as long as the hitter gives a recognition sign" is a pretty big if for a 14 year old-it doesn't ensure he will go brain dead 5 seconds later. Wilson Ramos almost killed Roger Bernandina this year on a squeeze at the mlb level.

    And the "slash" part of the bunt and slash is a choppy semi-flat footed swing and not a regular swing. I guess we could argue until the cows came home. Like I said, I don't have a problem with leagues banning the slash-just pointing out that it is not all that dangerous relative to everything else.
    Last edited by omg; 10-28-2012, 06:37 PM.

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  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    I coached in a 14 year old game in which there was a bunt and slash and a suicide squeeze. I appreciate that adults/leagues are concerned about safety so I don't have a problem with leagues banning the bunt and slash.

    In this game, the bunt and slash was called the pitch after a bunt was missed. The infielders really only get to about 70 feet from the batter which is 20 feet in from the base line and still 10 feet deeper from where the pitcher is. By getting to 60 or 70 feet from the batter that allows the fielder plenty of time to field a bunt fairly routinely unless it is a brilliant bunt. So I don't see him it as some outrageously dangerous play.

    With the suicide squeeze the runner is running full speed towards the batter and is about 45 feet away from the batter when the ball is at the plate. I'd say it's more dangerous than the bunt and slash.

    Neither play is more dangerous than, say, a routine pop fly between the second baseman, the right fielder, and the center fielder.
    Can't really compare those situations, as a team will never put on the "let's hit a popup in that one spot where there could be confusion and an injury" play. One situation is part of normal game play, the other (slash) is bringing the potential for serious injury into play willingly. As for the suicide, as long as the hitter picks up the suicide sign and gives a recognition sign then that play isn't dangerous...if the coach isnt 100% sure the hitter recognizes it, he should wipe it.

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  • omg
    replied
    I coached in a 14 year old game in which there was a bunt and slash and a suicide squeeze. I appreciate that adults/leagues are concerned about safety so I don't have a problem with leagues banning the bunt and slash.

    In this game, the bunt and slash was called the pitch after a bunt was missed. The infielders really only get to about 70 feet from the batter which is 20 feet in from the base line and still 10 feet deeper from where the pitcher is. By getting to 60 or 70 feet from the batter that allows the fielder plenty of time to field a bunt fairly routinely unless it is a brilliant bunt. So I don't see this as some outrageously dangerous play.

    With the suicide squeeze the runner is running full speed towards the batter and is about 45 feet away from the batter when the ball is at the plate. I'd say it's more dangerous than the bunt and slash.

    Neither play is more dangerous than, say, a routine pop fly between the second baseman, the right fielder, and the center fielder.
    Last edited by omg; 10-29-2012, 01:09 PM.

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  • tg643
    replied
    I saw bunt and slash against my son's high school team twice. After the first time where a left hitter nearly took the head off the third baseman they practiced how to defense the play. On the next pitch whether it's the same hitter or the next hitter, the catcher sets up on the outside corner and the pitcher comes up an in with a fastball. My son said from knowing players on other teams in the conference, the word spread quickly don't try this on his team.

    In showcase/scout league level ball hitters are trying to prove they can drive the ball, not trick their way on to base. You don't see the play. No one wants to come off like a bush leaguer. The one time an opposing hitter went for the ankle of the first baseman and got it he was drilled in his next at bat.

    Someone tried the bunt and slash on our 16U team full of fifteen year olds. The kid on the mound had the kind of control to knock the zit of the rear of a gnat. The next time the hitter came up he dotted the eye on his uniform. He wasn't told to drill the kid. He had only learned teammates stick up for teammates.

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  • raptor
    replied
    If that team has propensity to run the wheel. Everyone is moving expecting a bunt.

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