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  • #46
    If you're coaching in the same league year after year, whether it be HSV or something else, it's best not to run this play.
    Let's not get hung up on whether it's risky or bush-league. All that matters is some (or many) of your repeat opponents may perceive that it's risky or bush-league.
    You never want to give people extra reasons to want to beat you, or denigrate your program.
    Roothog's situation is different. Five years from now he won't be playing the same opponents he's playing now.

    I cannot remember seeing this play in action. Perhaps it happened. (I have CRS.)
    Last edited by skipper5; 10-29-2012, 06:19 PM.
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    • #47
      delete--double post
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      • #48
        Originally posted by omg View Post
        Geez fellows, read the posts. "Most..won't pull stunts like that"? "Deadly"? "Catastrophic"? "Trash"? "Bush"? What are we gonna do, stop throwing curves because they're scary and you have to aim that at the batter's ear and it's dangerous because, uh, what if one of them doesn't actually break or something?
        You equate calling the butcher play the same as throwing curve balls? Actually on second thought you should use the butcher boy. It probably more accurately reflects your coaching style.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
          If you're coaching in the same league year after year, whether it be HSV or something else, it's best not to run this play.
          Let's not get hung up on whether it's risky or bush-league. All that matters is some (or many) of your repeat opponents may perceive that it's risky or bush-league.
          You never want to give people extra reasons to want to beat you, or denigrate your program.
          Roothog's situation is different. Five years from now he won't be playing the same opponents he's playing now.

          I cannot remember seeing this play in action. Perhaps it happened. (I have CRS.)
          That's just it. It's not even perceived to be risky or bush league and I've been around the game for several years all over the country although granted not that much at the youth levels. I respect people's opinions, different viewpoints, and experiences. I've been wrong before. What's interesting to me is that a relatively mundane question about when to use the slash has become something much more interesting to me.

          The bunt/slash is just a play, like the sacrifice bunt, the double steal, or the double cut. No more and no less. Granted, it's used very infrequently. That's probably part of it. Somebody didn't know it existed, sees it, and thinks, holy crap, that's unfair and dangerous, especially if it worked. The first curve ballers probably got a hard time, too. " Hey there, that's an illegal pitch boy. Might kill someone."

          I have this in the Reefer Madness category or banning tag at recess category. I'm not convincing anyone here and nobody certainly is convincing me on this topic. I suppose we all just need to go to arbitration and ask some people we respect and who are knowledgable. Hairy backed little league coaches who win "the big one" year after year and like to hold court up at the pizza parlor with their assistants after every game don't qualify.
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          • #50
            Originally posted by omg View Post
            That's just it. It's not even perceived to be risky or bush league and I've been around the game for several years all over the country although granted not that much at the youth levels. I respect people's opinions, different viewpoints, and experiences. I've been wrong before. What's interesting to me is that a relatively mundane question about when to use the slash has become something much more interesting to me.

            The bunt/slash is just a play, like the sacrifice bunt, the double steal, or the double cut. No more and no less. Granted, it's used very infrequently. That's probably part of it. Somebody didn't know it existed, sees it, and thinks, holy crap, that's unfair and dangerous, especially if it worked. The first curve ballers probably got a hard time, too. " Hey there, that's an illegal pitch boy. Might kill someone."

            I have this in the Reefer Madness category or banning tag at recess category. I'm not convincing anyone here and nobody certainly is convincing me on this topic. I suppose we all just need to go to arbitration and ask some people we respect and who are knowledgable. Hairy backed little league coaches who win "the big one" year after year and like to hold court up at the pizza parlor with their assistants after every game don't qualify.
            Ah I hear ya man..that all being said..I did try to kee it on track and respond and said that a good time to use it would be if you thought they would wheel. If it is a play you can run without being chastised for it, and can use it under control without your hitters taking purposeful pull field hacks, when would that situation be in your opinion? I get that at this point we are talking about pepper-type swings?

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            • #51
              Anyone have Juan Encarnacion's email address? I wonder if he has any thoughts on balls rocketing towards fielders who are tricked into standing close to the plate or charging.
              Last edited by StanTheMan; 10-29-2012, 08:51 PM.
              "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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              • #52
                Originally posted by raptor View Post
                Ah I hear ya man..that all being said..I did try to kee it on track and respond and said that a good time to use it would be if you thought they would wheel. If it is a play you can run without being chastised for it, and can use it under control without your hitters taking purposeful pull field hacks, when would that situation be in your opinion? I get that at this point we are talking about pepper-type swings?
                Yes, the wheel would be the time. Of course, you can't predict whether the opposition will have the wheel on. I've only used the play probably less than once a year. It's because I don't think to do it. I'd like to use it more. I think it has more potential as a bunt/slash/hit and run: no outs, runners on 1st and 2nd. Runners steal, the infielders are running all over the place either defending the bunt or covering for the steal. Not necessarily sure whether it is more effective or less effective after the batter shows bunt on a previous pitch. Could use it with just a runner on first as well. Guys don't sac bunt real well, some guys, so they may have more success in advancing the runner on a slash. I think is also helpful as a potential weapon: if the other team knows you might do it then you are more likely to get a successful sac bunt and not have the fielder nail the lead runner.

                Mainly I don't think to use it but I think it has great potential as an effective play.
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                • #53
                  Originally posted by StanTheMan View Post
                  Anyone have Juan Encarnacion's email address? I wonder if he has any thoughts on balls rocketing towards fielders who are tricked into standing close to the plate or charging.
                  Baseball is a very dangerous game, no doubt about it. The danger is underrated. Encarnacion got tricked in to standing in the on deck circle and getting nailed by a teammate's foul ball. A minor league first base coach was killed by a foul ball. I've seen players run into chain link fences and just get demolished. Catchers leaving in ambulances on collisions. Middle infielders getting hit in the face on a relay throw they lost in the lights. Hell, I hit a guy right between the eyes coming into 2nd from 3 feet with an all out throw (he didn't slide) and the ball ricocheted-the left fielder almost caught it.

                  Some rule changes are appropriate to ameliorate the danger: base coaches wearing helmets, no head first slides into home, etc. Does the bunt/slash fall in to that category? The only reason it would is because it would be viewed that a slash is an intentional play whereas someone hitting a foul ball doesn't do it intentionally.

                  It would be interesting though to ask someone like Encarnacion about the dangers of the slash. If you didn't mind him first laughing in your face.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by omg View Post
                    Yes, the wheel would be the time. Of course, you can't predict whether the opposition will have the wheel on. I've only used the play probably less than once a year. It's because I don't think to do it. I'd like to use it more. I think it has more potential as a bunt/slash/hit and run: no outs, runners on 1st and 2nd. Runners steal, the infielders are running all over the place either defending the bunt or covering for the steal. Not necessarily sure whether it is more effective or less effective after the batter shows bunt on a previous pitch. Could use it with just a runner on first as well. Guys don't sac bunt real well, some guys, so they may have more success in advancing the runner on a slash. I think is also helpful as a potential weapon: if the other team knows you might do it then you are more likely to get a successful sac bunt and not have the fielder nail the lead runner.

                    Mainly I don't think to use it but I think it has great potential as an effective play.
                    If you have us R1 and R2 w 0 out..close game...we will slow it down..could run ss in front with a wheel pitchout...next play a wheel pick to 2b..maybe throw over to 1b just to keep things honest...then step off.. inside move..etc.. then true wheel..by the time the ball comes to the plate we might have the step we need..if u slash we r dead!

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                    • #55
                      When you are talking about the slash play, you need to consider the level of play and the base distances.

                      Most kids below HS are charging hard when the bunt is shown. Yes, they should be coached how far to go and to be under control. However - even if your players are taught this, there is no guarantee the other team's players are. Even if they are coached well - they're kids. They forget stuff in the heat of the game. That's why it's dangerous. I wouldn't call a slash with younger players because I'd feel bad if the poorly coached F5 got drilled in the face.

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                      • #56
                        It occurs to me that many of us have different experiences with bunt defenses. Until the earlier incident I shared, I had never seen if's come anywhere that near when charging. Perhaps if you coach in a league where it is illegal, you see guys (especially 3B) charging in way farther because they can do so with no fear, allowing them to grab the short popped up bunt. When the slug bunt is in play, they don't really come in any closer to the plate than the mound anyway, so I don't see it as the danger many of the other posters do. I also come from a competitive softball background where this is a common staple of the game and no one thinks twice about it (or at least that was true 10-20 years ago).

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
                          It occurs to me that many of us have different experiences with bunt defenses. Until the earlier incident I shared, I had never seen if's come anywhere that near when charging. Perhaps if you coach in a league where it is illegal, you see guys (especially 3B) charging in way farther because they can do so with no fear, allowing them to grab the short popped up bunt. When the slug bunt is in play, they don't really come in any closer to the plate than the mound anyway, so I don't see it as the danger many of the other posters do. I also come from a competitive softball background where this is a common staple of the game and no one thinks twice about it (or at least that was true 10-20 years ago).
                          That's probably the crux of the matter...it's illegal in any tourney except (SS OR TC) I can't recall exactly which one, because it's never called...the fact I can't even remember which one tells you, right? If you show bunt, we are coming hard. If we are in a bunt sitiuation on D then the F5 is playing up anyway on the edge of the grass, so yes he can get there pretty quick, especially considering a lot of youth hitters show the bunt earlier than necessary. What's the way you guys defend that play if you are playing a team which has called it and showed it in the past, other than nailing the next hitter, of course!

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                          • #58
                            Question for Scorekeeper:
                            You've closely observed a few hundred (?) HSV games in the past 10 years.
                            Can you guesstimate how many bunt/slashes you've seen?

                            Against HSV pitching, no-outs, runners at 1rst and2nd: is the bunt/slash a percentage play?
                            How reliably can a HS batter slash-on-demand as compared to his reliability of moving the runners by bunting or by swinging away?
                            Last edited by skipper5; 10-31-2012, 04:40 PM.
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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
                              Question for Scorekeeper:
                              You've closely observed a few hundred (?) HSV games in the past 10 years.
                              Can you guesstimate how many bunt/slashes you've seen?
                              In all honesty, I can only say it would be at most a handful. I know our coach doesn’t encourage it but never asked him why.

                              Against HSV pitching, no-outs, runners at 1rst and2nd: is the bunt/slash a percentage play?
                              I can’t say. However, if this helps, last season we had runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs 17 times and the lead runner was moved up 11 of them. That’s a percentage of .647. Its really difficult for me to see that percentage improving very with a slash/bunt.

                              How reliably can a HS batter slash-on-demand as compared to his reliability of moving the runners by bunting or by swinging away?
                              I suspect that percentage is lower than just trying a bunt and less than trying to hit away, but I don’t know for sure.
                              The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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                              • #60
                                [QUOTE=scorekeeper;2083038However, if this helps, last season we had runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs 17 times and the lead runner was moved up 11 of them. That’s a percentage of .647. Its really difficult for me to see that percentage improving very with a slash/bunt.
                                .[/QUOTE]

                                .647 moved up with zero outs or eventually moved up? How many of the 17 were the runners moved up with an out recorded? Thanks.
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