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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by HYP View Post
    I teach my 3rd baseman, upon seeing the batter square, to take 3 steps, left, right, left and then read. Bunted hard go get it, so he should never be so close that he couldn't field his position on a slash. If your 3rd baseman or 1st baseman crash to hard they will be out of position to field a push bunt, which is more often used then a slash.

    No one has mentioned girls fast pitch softball. I watch some of those games and the 3rd basegirl is 15 feet from the batter, almost all the time to take away the drag bunt. Those girls slash all the time.
    HYP, a couple years ago, we adopted Ron Polk's idea of using F4 to crash instead of F3. Works well, as it takes away the "push bunt", gives F4 an easier path to all bunts to the right side, and allows us to run a PO/back pick to 1B, and not have a fielder still trying to get there in time as I used to see more often than I wanted.

    Just another option.....

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by HYP View Post
    LOL. I don't want to get hit by a wiffle ball from that distance with those hot bats.
    Really, I've had a couple of people throwing me bp re-assess the potential dangers of the tennis ball.

    Leave a comment:


  • HYP
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    Hey, but the balls are soft, right?
    LOL. I don't want to get hit by a wiffle ball from that distance with those hot bats.

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by HYP View Post
    I watch some of those games and the 3rd basegirl is 15 feet from the batter, almost all the time to take away the drag bunt. Those girls slash all the time.
    Hey, but the balls are soft, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • HYP
    replied
    Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
    We've been through the whole discussion before and it is known that I use the butcher boy play extensively. Some coaches don't like it and they let me hear about it. If they want to throw at my kids, as TG would have them do, I would argue that one play is legal, the other isn't. One is intended to do damage, the other simply has it as a byproduct possibility. rarely do the charging corner infielders come much closer than the pitcher who is far more vulnerable. However, once last year at a W/S event, I had the call on and almost panicked when the third baseman cam to within TEN FEET of home plate. Luckily, my kid drove the ball through the hole that the shortstop left to cover third and it wasn't close to the third baseman. The other coach threw a fit and wanted my kid thrown out of the game. The ump had to calm him down and explain that there was no rule against it. Where they played (michigan, maybe?) the rules routinely prohibited it. In leagues like that, is it common for 3b to charge that close? I guess if that were common in the baseball I see, I would never call it and I would completely understand some of the really strong opinions against it, but I just never see kids charge that far up the line.
    I teach my 3rd baseman, upon seeing the batter square, to take 3 steps, left, right, left and then read. Bunted hard go get it, so he should never be so close that he couldn't field his position on a slash. If your 3rd baseman or 1st baseman crash to hard they will be out of position to field a push bunt, which is more often used then a slash.

    No one has mentioned girls fast pitch softball. I watch some of those games and the 3rd basegirl is 15 feet from the batter, almost all the time to take away the drag bunt. Those girls slash all the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Well, here’s where great minds have difficulty coming together. My MRU metric isn’t intended to show positive vs negative results from every conceivable perspective. When I developed it, it was to see if I could come up with a way to show a hitter’s positive contributions better than an RBI, BA, or OBP. IMHO, its more often beneficial to move a lead runner than not, even if it
    involves a double play.

    Here are the possible outcomes of an AB with no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd.

    3 outs on a triple play would be the worst of all possible outcomes. 3 runs without costing an out would be the best outcome. So everything else is between those two extremes. That leaves us let trying to decide which of the other outcomes is better than the others. FI, 3 on and no outs is pretty good, but is it as good as 2 runs and 1 out?

    I’ll put up a queue of result. Hopefully I’ll get things in the right order and not miss any.
    • No outs 3 runs in.
      No outs 2 runs in, runner on 3rd.
      No outs 1 run in, runners on 2nd and 3rd.
      No outs bases loaded.

      1 out 2 runs in no runners on.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 3rd.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 2rd.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 1st.
      1 out runners on 2nd and 3rd.
      1 out runners on 1st and 3rd.
      1 out runners on 1st and 2nd.

      2 outs 1 run in.
      2 outs runner on 3rd.
      2 outs runner on 2nd.
      2 outs runner on 1st.

      3 outs


    So would a DP leaving only a runner on 3rd be bad? Well, it wouldn’t be as good a lot of outcomes, but there would still be at least 3 that were worse. In that sense its still appositive result, but not nearly as positive as it could be.

    In the end, there are many many questions still left unanswered even at the level of data I have, but many have been answered. I could press a few more buttons and mine a few other answers out of the data that’s there and tell the computer to track a few more data points to increase the precision.

    Unfortunately, the more precise the data becomes, the fewer instances of each there will be. I posited 16 different possibilities for runners on 2nd and 3rd no outs. In our one season there were only 16 times that situation came up, but how many times would any of those individual outcomes take place? Now even if we had the data for just 1 league we’d have something we could use to start answering more questions, but as far as I know, no one other than myself has that depth of data, so its really only spinning tires. Hopefully I’ll be doing this for another few years and I’ll re-visit this discussion and see what the numbers look like, or someone else out there will begin doing it too.
    Thanks for your work. The only reason why I asked is that you wrote "that’s a percentage of .647. Its really difficult for me to see that percentage improving very much with a slash/bunt.

    The .647 seems like a great percentage but I think you see how it could be misleading.

    Leave a comment:


  • scorekeeper
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    I tried but didn't see how I could figure out, for example, if a batter grounded to short and made an out like hitting into a double play. Yes, the runner advances to 3rd but, no, it's not a positive result. See what I'm getting at?
    Well, here’s where great minds have difficulty coming together. My MRU metric isn’t intended to show positive vs negative results from every conceivable perspective. When I developed it, it was to see if I could come up with a way to show a hitter’s positive contributions better than an RBI, BA, or OBP. IMHO, its more often beneficial to move a lead runner than not, even if it
    involves a double play.

    Here are the possible outcomes of an AB with no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd.

    3 outs on a triple play would be the worst of all possible outcomes. 3 runs without costing an out would be the best outcome. So everything else is between those two extremes. That leaves us let trying to decide which of the other outcomes is better than the others. FI, 3 on and no outs is pretty good, but is it as good as 2 runs and 1 out?

    I’ll put up a queue of result. Hopefully I’ll get things in the right order and not miss any.
    • No outs 3 runs in.
      No outs 2 runs in, runner on 3rd.
      No outs 1 run in, runners on 2nd and 3rd.
      No outs bases loaded.

      1 out 2 runs in no runners on.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 3rd.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 2rd.
      1 out 1 run in runner on 1st.
      1 out runners on 2nd and 3rd.
      1 out runners on 1st and 3rd.
      1 out runners on 1st and 2nd.

      2 outs 1 run in.
      2 outs runner on 3rd.
      2 outs runner on 2nd.
      2 outs runner on 1st.

      3 outs


    So would a DP leaving only a runner on 3rd be bad? Well, it wouldn’t be as good a lot of outcomes, but there would still be at least 3 that were worse. In that sense its still appositive result, but not nearly as positive as it could be.

    In the end, there are many many questions still left unanswered even at the level of data I have, but many have been answered. I could press a few more buttons and mine a few other answers out of the data that’s there and tell the computer to track a few more data points to increase the precision.

    Unfortunately, the more precise the data becomes, the fewer instances of each there will be. I posited 16 different possibilities for runners on 2nd and 3rd no outs. In our one season there were only 16 times that situation came up, but how many times would any of those individual outcomes take place? Now even if we had the data for just 1 league we’d have something we could use to start answering more questions, but as far as I know, no one other than myself has that depth of data, so its really only spinning tires. Hopefully I’ll be doing this for another few years and I’ll re-visit this discussion and see what the numbers look like, or someone else out there will begin doing it too.

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
    The criteria was 1st and 2nd no out, so that’s what I quoted. Remember how I do things. The lead runner is the key, so I’m saying there were 17 times where a batter came up with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, and 11 of those times after the AB the runner on 2nd had moved at least to 3rd.

    I’ll allow you to count them.

    [ATTACH]116235[/ATTACH]
    I tried but didn't see how I could figure out, for example, if a batter grounded to short and made an out like hitting into a double play. Yes, the runner advances to 3rd but, no, it's not a positive result. See what I'm getting at?

    Leave a comment:


  • scorekeeper
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    .647 moved up with zero outs or eventually moved up?
    The criteria was 1st and 2nd no out, so that’s what I quoted. Remember how I do things. The lead runner is the key, so I’m saying there were 17 times where a batter came up with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, and 11 of those times after the AB the runner on 2nd had moved at least to 3rd.

    How many of the 17 were the runners moved up with an out recorded?
    I’ll allow you to count them.

    pbi4.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • omg
    replied
    [QUOTE=scorekeeper;2083038However, if this helps, last season we had runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs 17 times and the lead runner was moved up 11 of them. That’s a percentage of .647. Its really difficult for me to see that percentage improving very with a slash/bunt.
    .[/QUOTE]

    .647 moved up with zero outs or eventually moved up? How many of the 17 were the runners moved up with an out recorded? Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • scorekeeper
    replied
    Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
    Question for Scorekeeper:
    You've closely observed a few hundred (?) HSV games in the past 10 years.
    Can you guesstimate how many bunt/slashes you've seen?
    In all honesty, I can only say it would be at most a handful. I know our coach doesn’t encourage it but never asked him why.

    Against HSV pitching, no-outs, runners at 1rst and2nd: is the bunt/slash a percentage play?
    I can’t say. However, if this helps, last season we had runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs 17 times and the lead runner was moved up 11 of them. That’s a percentage of .647. Its really difficult for me to see that percentage improving very with a slash/bunt.

    How reliably can a HS batter slash-on-demand as compared to his reliability of moving the runners by bunting or by swinging away?
    I suspect that percentage is lower than just trying a bunt and less than trying to hit away, but I don’t know for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • skipper5
    replied
    Question for Scorekeeper:
    You've closely observed a few hundred (?) HSV games in the past 10 years.
    Can you guesstimate how many bunt/slashes you've seen?

    Against HSV pitching, no-outs, runners at 1rst and2nd: is the bunt/slash a percentage play?
    How reliably can a HS batter slash-on-demand as compared to his reliability of moving the runners by bunting or by swinging away?
    Last edited by skipper5; 10-31-2012, 04:40 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • raptor
    replied
    Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
    It occurs to me that many of us have different experiences with bunt defenses. Until the earlier incident I shared, I had never seen if's come anywhere that near when charging. Perhaps if you coach in a league where it is illegal, you see guys (especially 3B) charging in way farther because they can do so with no fear, allowing them to grab the short popped up bunt. When the slug bunt is in play, they don't really come in any closer to the plate than the mound anyway, so I don't see it as the danger many of the other posters do. I also come from a competitive softball background where this is a common staple of the game and no one thinks twice about it (or at least that was true 10-20 years ago).
    That's probably the crux of the matter...it's illegal in any tourney except (SS OR TC) I can't recall exactly which one, because it's never called...the fact I can't even remember which one tells you, right? If you show bunt, we are coming hard. If we are in a bunt sitiuation on D then the F5 is playing up anyway on the edge of the grass, so yes he can get there pretty quick, especially considering a lot of youth hitters show the bunt earlier than necessary. What's the way you guys defend that play if you are playing a team which has called it and showed it in the past, other than nailing the next hitter, of course!

    Leave a comment:


  • Roothog66
    replied
    It occurs to me that many of us have different experiences with bunt defenses. Until the earlier incident I shared, I had never seen if's come anywhere that near when charging. Perhaps if you coach in a league where it is illegal, you see guys (especially 3B) charging in way farther because they can do so with no fear, allowing them to grab the short popped up bunt. When the slug bunt is in play, they don't really come in any closer to the plate than the mound anyway, so I don't see it as the danger many of the other posters do. I also come from a competitive softball background where this is a common staple of the game and no one thinks twice about it (or at least that was true 10-20 years ago).

    Leave a comment:


  • ralanprod
    replied
    When you are talking about the slash play, you need to consider the level of play and the base distances.

    Most kids below HS are charging hard when the bunt is shown. Yes, they should be coached how far to go and to be under control. However - even if your players are taught this, there is no guarantee the other team's players are. Even if they are coached well - they're kids. They forget stuff in the heat of the game. That's why it's dangerous. I wouldn't call a slash with younger players because I'd feel bad if the poorly coached F5 got drilled in the face.

    Leave a comment:

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