Analysis of Posada's swing.

[azmatsfan]

Jake, I know you closed the other thread, but I think there was a lot of good material in there. If some got tired of the back and forth, they don't need to read it. Being challnged to explain the movements I see in MLB swings gives me a deeper understanding, and I'm always open to hearing other's ideas on the topic as well.

Noon, you asked for my analysis of the Posada swing, so here it is.

Posada_side_angle.gif

Unfortunately I'm not technologically savvy enough to edit the clip. Instead I downloaded it into Quicktime and counted frames. For reference, frame 13 is front toe touch, frame 16 is front heal plant, and frame 18/19 is contact.

During the first 7 frames Posada loads his hip and begins loading the scap. In frames 7 to 12 he abducts his rear leg, and tries to externally rotate the rear leg as his COG moves forward. You can actually see his rear leg ER a little in frames 7-9, which you don't see in most hitters. In the frame or two before toe touch you can see his rear leg IR a little as his hips begin to open, but this is the leg returning to it's standard position after the ER. The hips' rotation is what is really rotating the rear knee. During this time his scap continues to load, creating separation between his shoulders and hips. He shifts his weight into (not onto) his front leg and unweights his back leg, the forward momentum along with a little head start in the hips, generates a lot of torque in the hips.

At frame 15 his hips still haven't rotated a lot. It's when he pushes back and straightens his front leg that the hips accelerate. He's converting that linear push into a rotational force. Very similar to an outfielder using a crow hop to generate linear momentum toward their target that is converted into a rotational force, instead of just spinning on their back foot. At the same time he slots the rear elbow, getting the barrel on plane with pitch. Using a two-plane swing (his shoulders and bat start rotating in two different planes) gives the barrel a head start in relation to his shoulders. I think of it like a relay runner jogging ahead of the previous runner in preparation for grabbing the baton. This is more efficient than standing still until the hand off. Between frames 17 and 18 Posada's hips decelerate as the core muscles use that energy to rotate the shoulders which decelerate at frame 18, which in turn helps accelerate the hands and barrel between frames 18 and contact. This is the kinetic chain which magnifies the energy originally created by the ground forces that rotated the hips.

It isn't necessary for a hitter to consciously think about abducting and ER the rear leg. It's a natural movement that occurs when the batter pushes with the back leg and uncoils the rear hip. A batter doesn't have to coil his rear hip as he loads it, but it can give the hips a head start as the push into the front side accelerates their rotation. Again the relay race analogy applies.

The question becomes what movements can help a hitter generate a little more power and what movements are necessary for an elite swing. There are elite (MLB) swings with little or no rear hip coil, are one-plane swings, and that don't get much hip/shoulder separation.

I hope this helps.

[Jake Patterson]

As before, the thread will remain open as long as it stays on topic and there are no personal attacks.

[Encinitas]

[ATTACH]116104[/ATTACH]

Unfortunately I'm not technologically savvy enough to edit the clip. Instead I downloaded it into Quicktime and counted frames. For reference, frame 13 is front toe touch, frame 16 is front heal plant, and frame 18/19 is contact.

During the first 7 frames Posada loads his hip and begins loading the scap. In frames 7 to 12 he abducts his rear leg, and tries to externally rotate the rear leg as his COG moves forward. You can actually see his rear leg ER a little in frames 7-9, which you don't see in most hitters. In the frame or two before toe touch you can see his rear leg IR a little as his hips begin to open, but this is the leg returning to it's standard position after the ER. The hips' rotation is what is really rotating the rear knee. During this time his scap continues to load, creating separation between his shoulders and hips. He shifts his weight into (not onto) his front leg and unweights his back leg, the forward momentum along with a little head start in the hips, generates a lot of torque in the hips.

At frame 15 his hips still haven't rotated a lot. It's when he pushes back and straightens his front leg that the hips accelerate. He's converting that linear push into a rotational force. Very similar to an outfielder using a crow hop to generate linear momentum toward their target that is converted into a rotational force, instead of just spinning on their back foot. At the same time he slots the rear elbow, getting the barrel on plane with pitch. Using a two-plane swing (his shoulders and bat start rotating in two different planes) gives the barrel a head start in relation to his shoulders. I think of it like a relay runner jogging ahead of the previous runner in preparation for grabbing the baton. This is more efficient than standing still until the hand off. Between frames 17 and 18 Posada's hips decelerate as the core muscles use that energy to rotate the shoulders which decelerate at frame 18, which in turn helps accelerate the hands and barrel between frames 18 and contact. This is the kinetic chain which magnifies the energy originally created by the ground forces that rotated the hips.

It isn't necessary for a hitter to consciously think about abducting and ER the rear leg. It's a natural movement that occurs when the batter pushes with the back leg and uncoils the rear hip. A batter doesn't have to coil his rear hip as he loads it, but it can give the hips a head start as the push into the front side accelerates their rotation. Again the relay race analogy applies.

The question becomes what movements can help a hitter generate a little more power and what movements are necessary for an elite swing. There are elite (MLB) swings with little or no rear hip coil, are one-plane swings, and that don't get much hip/shoulder separation.

I hope this helps.

At what point do we have to ask for some kind of proof that the movement you say is happening in the back leg is something that can be duplicated with instruction.

Let's look at the facts:
- To my knowledge there isn't a single clip of one of Doc's hitter's that has the correct sequence in the back leg like we see in Posada, so we can reasonably assume that teaching Abduction in and of itself, is rather meaningless. Sure it happens in most swings down to Tee Ball, but clearly we've proven with video a hitter with good abduction will not necessarily find the pattern
- How are we supposed to assume that the scientific terms you say apply to the back leg here in Posada will work? We can plainly see what is high level and what isn't and for the guy you defend, as has been established none of those hitters can do what Posada does. Why is the onus on the reader to trust what you say, when the few clips we are lucky enough to see are not in pattern.
- If you say that what I and noon are saying to try is actually ER, then why does it feel like AT THE HIP SOCKET that two opposing forces are at work. If I am trying to coil around with the bottom of the top, and resisting that coil with my leg, how is it, that my leg is ER as well? Surely you don't want to get so coiled up that your pelvis points towards 1B, I don't think anyone here believes in "turn the hips like a mutha" to launch the swing. If at any time I release the IR tension and just ER, I end up looking exactly like all of Doc's hitters as do my kids.

Now when you want to talk about when the hips decelerate, when the shoulders decelerate etc. these are quite interesting, I am not sure it matters or helps anyone teach a hitter, but nothing wrong with you posting it. I agree all of those types of things can be measured, visualized, tested, etc. And in a pure academic sense these are reasonable discussions to have, but once again when you try to take an academic description and start to create drills to maximize the very measurements you are taking, is it reasonable to step back and make sure that the resulting swing at least matches pattern? If it doesn't, then what is the problem? Hitter can't comprehend drills? Instructor not teaching it right? Is it slightly possible that the scientists understanding of the swing is not right? Or is it simply bad drills, bad instruction or a bad student?

Lastly for those of you who read these and actually want to teach your kids, there is one question to ask the guys defending the scientific approach here.

Just about any and all high level swings you see, look at the clips of bombs..... Why does the back leg knee "giddyup" into the zone before the hands, and why don't any of the hitters taught from the science perspective of Doc do that. This is fact by the way, THE EYE IN THE SKY DOESN'T LIE.

Shall we look at a few clips:

Texieraside.gif berkman_3bangle_hr.gif braun_oppo_side.gif

braun_oppo_sidefront.gif


Look at Bonds and Hank when that back knee goes down and in their hands aren't even ready to swing it. That is separation.

bondshank.gif

[azmatsfan]

At what point do we have to ask for some kind of proof that the movement you say is happening in the back leg is something that can be duplicated with instruction.

Let's look at the facts:
- To my knowledge there isn't a single clip of one of Doc's hitter's that has the correct sequence in the back leg like we see in Posada, so we can reasonably assume that teaching Abduction in and of itself, is rather meaningless. Sure it happens in most swings down to Tee Ball, but clearly we've proven with video a hitter with good abduction will not necessarily find the pattern
- How are we supposed to assume that the scientific terms you say apply to the back leg here in Posada will work? We can plainly see what is high level and what isn't and for the guy you defend, as has been established none of those hitters can do what Posada does. Why is the onus on the reader to trust what you say, when the few clips we are lucky enough to see are not in pattern.
- If you say that what I and noon are saying to try is actually ER, then why does it feel like AT THE HIP SOCKET that two opposing forces are at work. If I am trying to coil around with the bottom of the top, and resisting that coil with my leg, how is it, that my leg is ER as well? Surely you don't want to get so coiled up that your pelvis points towards 1B, I don't think anyone here believes in "turn the hips like a mutha" to launch the swing. If at any time I release the IR tension and just ER, I end up looking exactly like all of Doc's hitters as do my kids.

Now when you want to talk about when the hips decelerate, when the shoulders decelerate etc. these are quite interesting, I am not sure it matters or helps anyone teach a hitter, but nothing wrong with you posting it. I agree all of those types of things can be measured, visualized, tested, etc. And in a pure academic sense these are reasonable discussions to have, but once again when you try to take an academic description and start to create drills to maximize the very measurements you are taking, is it reasonable to step back and make sure that the resulting swing at least matches pattern? If it doesn't, then what is the problem? Hitter can't comprehend drills? Instructor not teaching it right? Is it slightly possible that the scientists understanding of the swing is not right? Or is it simply bad drills, bad instruction or a bad student?

Lastly for those of you who read these and actually want to teach your kids, there is one question to ask the guys defending the scientific approach here.

Just about any and all high level swings you see, look at the clips of bombs..... Why does the back leg knee "giddyup" into the zone before the hands, and why don't any of the hitters taught from the science perspective of Doc do that. This is fact by the way, THE EYE IN THE SKY DOESN'T LIE.

Shall we look at a few clips:


Look at Bonds and Hank when that back knee goes down and in their hands aren't even ready to swing it. That is separation.

First, I'm not defending Chris Yeager, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want me speaking for him anyway. Second, I'm not saying that what I wrote is how to teach the swing. I'm describing the mechanics involved. Many of those movements are a result of getting loaded properly and keeping the hands back as the hips fire first. I'm describing how the body does it, not what the batter is thinking. If you are getting hitters to look like MLB hitters using your drills and getting them to feel the rear hip action, then it doesn't matter if they know they're rear leg is trying to externally rotate as they push. The body does this naturally. It doesn't need to be taught. I work with younger hitters and have them do drills to get a feel for the proper mechanics in hopes of them repeating these movements when they swing. I don't talk about the kinetic chain or external rotation or deceleration of the hips.

And the reason you feel the resistance in the rear hip is because as the attempt to externally rotate the rear leg is trying to open the hips, the front side is fighting it and keeping it closed until the front foot lands. We've established this. You can clearly see Posada's rear femur externally rotate for at least two frames. I was hoping to move beyond the ER as I think it's been proven over and over on video that there is an attempt to externally rotate the rear leg.

Finally, the rear knee will rotate before the hands are ready to swing. I have no problem with that description. It's because the hips rotate before the hands are ready to swing. The knee will rotate practically in unison with the rear hip. It's one movement, not two separate movements.

[tradosaurus]

I can't imagine trying to teach a kid to bat using some of these threads.

And I imagine that the majority of MLB players didn't learn it from a kinesiology book.

If you want to learn how to hit in somewhat simplified terms read "The Science of Hitting" by Ted Williams.

On the Posada's swing, that is the first time I've seen a batter bound after contact.

[NoonTime]

Buh Bye BBF!

[azmatsfan]

I can't imagine trying to teach a kid to bat using some of these threads.

And I imagine that the majority of MLB players didn't learn it from a kinesiology book.

If you want to learn how to hit in somewhat simplified terms read "The Science of Hitting" by Ted Williams.

On the Posada's swing, that is the first time I've seen a batter bound after contact.

No one is promoting teaching hitters using this terminology. But when trying to discuss how the best swing a bat on an internet message board you need to use this terminology. Words like "oomph" and "blur" are meaningless. And I agree, Ted Williams does a great job of describing the swing and is the place to start for someone interested in learning about the swing. Like I said previously, I don't use any of these terms like external rotation or abduction with my players.

[Encinitas]

Tradosaurus, for most of us this is about perhaps getting our kids, or students if you have that, to be able to play at a level that they otherwise shouldn't be able to play at, (all things being equal). In other words maximizing their natural god-given gifts whatever that is. For some kids maybe that means getting to play HS ball when they otherwise wouldn't have. For some perhaps qualifying for D2 ball instead of D3. Or an independant league player, learns the stuff and becomes baseball america player of the year for Independent baseball, and at 28 gets his first shot at affiliated baseball, and sets a team record for RBIs.

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp...=.jsp&sid=t538


So matching up to the best is clearly very important if we are going to maximize our hitters capabilities. Do you know how many parents on these sites say "just read the Ted Williams book" and their kid's swings end up not looking very good? Not only that, Ted himself was not able to get his own guys to do it, with and without the book. If you think it's as easy as looking at Teddy Ballgame's (my dog's name) material I'd say you have to go further if you are not matching up. Assuming you test your hitters swings against elite swings.

Also while you say this stuff is hard, bear in mind Azmats is discussing things at a very high level that is not required for you to teach hitting and we all agree on that, including mr. booth.

On the other hand what Noon and I asked people to try, I don't think is very hard at all. Remember we are all arguing and debating the semantics of what the movement is. Trying what I say to try in order to FEEL what the pros get down isn't really that hard. Once you've felt it, and watch enough video and compare to your old cuts where you weren't doing it, you'll be a convert for life.

So the argument here is more along the lines of this. The sciency types are frustrated that we don't take the time to understand enough of the kiniesiolgy/physics/bio-mechanics etc. And the practical do-ers are frustrated that the sciency types cannot seem to get this completely vital movement in their hitters and want to know why so much time is spent on explaining why and how the swings works and very little time on fixing their hitters. There is zero evidence at this point that any PhDs are getting the pattern taught. So while I won't question the force plate measurements and such, I have to at least question the drills, and the goals given to each hitter which seem to be leading to the sub-optimal swings.

[songtitle]

Good post, encinitas.

[NoonTime]

Buh Bye BBF!

[azmatsfan]

Noon Time, thanks for the detailed reply. I have a better understanding now of where you (and your camp) are coming from. I think our biggest difference in how we believe the hips rotate. It seems there are three main camps on here. There are those that believe it's a middle-out rotation that's initiated by the core (neither of us believes this), there are those that believe the key to rotating the hips lies in the rear hip action (you), and there are those that believe it's a push/block/push that is the primary (but not only) source of powerful hip rotation (me). For me when I swing the muscles that pain me the most are those in my right upper butt and lower back as a RH hitter. Those are the muscles that perform the abuction/ER movement. Also, the body is going to use the biggest muscles to create pressure against the ground make the most powerful possible rotation. After the push, internally rotating the rear leg can give a little head start to the rotation, but in MLB swings the hips don't really accelerate until that front foot hits the ground and the big muscles can get involved.

What I have found interesting in working with kids that haven't had their natural movements taught out of them, if asked to hit a ball off a tee while holding the bat across their belt buckle and keeping their head still, most will naturally load the back hip and rotate into a firm front side. (If you don't force them to keep their head still, they tend to lunge.) If I can get them to feel this using their own natural movements, then I don't need to discuss any of the other mumbo jumbo we're discussing on here.

[lancers]

Noon Time, thanks for the detailed reply. I have a better understanding now of where you (and your camp) are coming from. I think our biggest difference in how we believe the hips rotate. It seems there are three main camps on here. There are those that believe it's a middle-out rotation that's initiated by the core (neither of us believes this), there are those that believe the key to rotating the hips lies in the rear hip action (you), and there are those that believe it's a push/block/push that is the primary (but not only) source of powerful hip rotation (me). For me when I swing the muscles that pain me the most are those in my right upper butt and lower back as a RH hitter. Those are the muscles that perform the abuction/ER movement. Also, the body is going to use the biggest muscles to create pressure against the ground make the most powerful possible rotation. After the push, internally rotating the rear leg can give a little head start to the rotation, but in MLB swings the hips don't really accelerate until that front foot hits the ground and the big muscles can get involved.

What I have found interesting in working with kids that haven't had their natural movements taught out of them, if asked to hit a ball off a tee while holding the bat across their belt buckle and keeping their head still, most will naturally load the back hip and rotate into a firm front side. (If you don't force them to keep their head still, they tend to lunge.) If I can get them to feel this using their own natural movements, then I don't need to discuss any of the other mumbo jumbo we're discussing on here.

Funny thing is that I used the block push approach when my son was 10 and 11. Then we switched to rear leg model.

[lancers]

I don't have that many of swings when he was 10 and 11.

Here's his dry swing using the block push


BP swing using the block push before we switched to the rear leg model.


Here's him after maybe 6 months later


You can see it was the same bat. But a totally different swing.

[NoonTime]

Buh Bye BBF!

[azmatsfan]

I don't have that many of swings when he was 10 and 11.

Here's his dry swing using the block push


BP swing using the block push before we switched to the rear leg model.


Here's him after maybe 6 months later


You can see it was the same bat. But a totally different swing.

Ironically his last swing is a much better example of shifting his weight into his front side. In the previous swing he isn't using the weight transfer at all. Nice job. He has a nice looking swing.