The "Wheel" Bunt Defense

[skipper5]

I'm curious Skip, why would you want the bunt pushed down the third baseline in the first place....especially with a "wheel" defense?

Push along 1B line guarantees longer throw, that most times isn't even attempted, and the sac works as planned.

I think you misunderstood me Mud.
I advocate the push along 1B line. So do other teams.

[omg]

BTW, have any of you guys ever had F4 up on the grass and covering the 1B line? Works surprisingly well in this and numerous other bunt situations...

I think I said before Marty Barrett used to do it many years ago. Must be a west coast thing. To each his own-I don't see the merit.

I agree that for amateur level bunting towards first may be better than third with runner on 2nd. In the pros/college the book is bunt to 3rd in that situation. Although I do like a bunt for a base hit to 3rd in that situation, especially early.

[mudvnine]

I think you misunderstood me Mud.
I advocate the push along 1B line. So do other teams.

Ah, well yes I did.....sorry 'bout that.

I think I said before Marty Barrett used to do it many years ago. Must be a west coast thing. To each his own-I don't see the merit.

I first read about it in the "Ron Polk Playbook" (excellent coaching resource btw), and it too took me a while to wrap my head around it before trying it.

Better defensive angle for F4 coming from between F1 and F3, giving him a better play on the ball, as he's always moving straight to it.....instead of straight up the line, and then a hard right as is many times the case for F3, or the ball bunted passed the mound and F1 chasing it after backwards once he delivers it, and can finally recover to chase after it.

Just watched it used by another HS team two weeks ago (first time I've seen that btw), and it worked exactly as planned, actually getting the runner at 3rd. F4 was already on the grass between the mound and 1B, and still advancing forward as F1 was releasing the ball.

By the time R2 was "making sure the ball was down before running", F4 was darn near picking up the baseball. Got the out at 3B by several steps....and it was on what most would consider an excellent bunt against "normal" bunt coverage.

But you are correct, "To each his own".....and I guess I actually like it that more coaches don't use it against us.

[omg]

Ah, well yes I did.....sorry 'bout that.


I first read about it in the "Ron Polk Playbook" (excellent coaching resource btw), and it too took me a while to wrap my head around it before trying it.

Better defensive angle for F4 coming from between F1 and F3, giving him a better play on the ball, as he's always moving straight to it.....instead of straight up the line, and then a hard right as is many times the case for F3, or the ball bunted passed the mound and F1 chasing it after backwards once he delivers it, and can finally recover to chase after it.

Just watched it used by another HS team two weeks ago (first time I've seen that btw), and it worked exactly as planned, actually getting the runner at 3rd. F4 was already on the grass between the mound and 1B, and still advancing forward as F1 was releasing the ball.

By the time R2 was "making sure the ball was down before running", F4 was darn near picking up the baseball. Got the out at 3B by several steps....and it was on what most would consider an excellent bunt against "normal" bunt coverage.

But you are correct, "To each his own".....and I guess I actually like it that more coaches don't use it against us.

Yes, I see the logic. Something to think about. Polk's book never leaves me: practice, games, toilet, bedside. I saw the 2b charge in writing back when Tanner was coaching the white sox and came out with a playbook. Very good. Loaned it out. Never got it back.

[daque]

The scary thing is when the batter shows bunt to clear out the gap from short stop for a punch hit. If he makes contact a little late on that punch hit, F4 could really get hurt.

[Roothog66]

The scary thing is when the batter shows bunt to clear out the gap from short stop for a punch hit. If he makes contact a little late on that punch hit, F4 could really get hurt.

I would say he's in no more danger than the pitcher.

[soceric]

But at 11u 50/70, once the 2nd relinquishes his hold the runner can expand and steal that 3rd base bag. Now the bunt isn't needed. We helped them. Was wondering if you felt the shortstop should be the one holding the runner at 2b, even with the righty hitter up. Any more thoughts on having both corners holding and not charging with runners on? Is that off the wall?

The whole point is that your pitchers need to know how to effectively hold a runner. You should by 11u be shutting down the steal of 3rd. If you can shut down the steal, the offense has the bunt option if they choose. I feel that the wheel is way too early for 11u. You need to "execute" a regular bunt defense first. The 3rd baseman needs to learn how to read the bunt. If the offense can execute a sac bunt at 11u the've been coached well. First rule you should be stressing on defense is to get an out. I'd save all the exotic bunt defenses until you can execute a regular bunt defense really well. At that point you won't need any exotic bunt defense for the most part.

[mudvnine]

The scary thing is when the batter shows bunt to clear out the gap from short stop for a punch hit. If he makes contact a little late on that punch hit, F4 could really get hurt.

I would say he's in no more danger than the pitcher.

Exactly.....and more than likely in a better fielding stance/position, as he's not turned away or off balance on one leg, is the case with many/most pitchers at and/or immediately after follow-through.

[skipper5]

As stated, I never run the wheel play. But it's a heck of a good way to set up a pickoff. If you run it on the first pitch, and they don't get the bunt down, then run it on the second pitch.... and pick off R2 via the back door (F4). The SS sprinting towards third acts like a magnet for R2.

[skipper5]

Exactly.....and more than likely in a better fielding stance/position, as he's not turned away or off balance on one leg, is the case with many/most pitchers at and/or immediately after follow-through.

I agree. We're OK with a pitcher being 55ft. from the batter (after delivery).
Why, then, is it risky (and courageous) for an infielder to be the same distance away???

"In the 1976 World Series, Pete Rose clearly knew he did not have the speed or arm strength to throw out Mickey Rivers from his normal third base position if the speedy ball player chose to lay down a bunt. Therefore, Rose repeatedly crept in from third base, leaving only 65-feet between them, fearlessly daring the man to swing away."

Pitchers have to laugh when they read this.

[daque]

I agree. We're OK with a pitcher being 55ft. from the batter (after delivery).
Why, then, is it risky (and courageous) for an infielder to be the same distance away???
"In the 1976 World Series, Pete Rose clearly knew he did not have the speed or arm strength to throw out Mickey Rivers from his normal third base position if the speedy ball player chose to lay down a bunt. Therefore, Rose repeatedly crept in from third base, leaving only 65-feet between them, fearlessly daring the man to swing away."

Pitchers have to laugh when they read this.

Thge pitcher's momentum forward is decelerating while the infielder is not. I have seen kids (the subject of this thread) ending up way too close to react. Kids do not have the reflexes of an adult, much less a gifted adult athletic player. I have never been comfortable endangering kids with this play.

[omg]

Thge pitcher's momentum forward is decelerating while the infielder is not. I have seen kids (the subject of this thread) ending up way too close to react. Kids do not have the reflexes of an adult, much less a gifted adult athletic player. I have never been comfortable endangering kids with this play.

The way I saw Marty Barrett do the 2bman charge play he basically begins at infield in depth. Once he reads bunt, he starts to charge. So he's not really in any more danger than a first or third baseman playing a bunt.

[skipper5]

The pitcher's momentum forward is decelerating while the infielder is not. I have seen kids (the subject of this thread) ending up way too close to react. Kids do not have the reflexes of an adult, much less a gifted adult athletic player. I have never been comfortable endangering kids with this play.

Daque,
Since you're referring to pre-teen baseball, I understand your concern.
Not only do you have to be careful about the safety of Other People's sub-teen children, you also have to look like you're being careful.
Though it was pretty much a non-issue on the small diamond when I coached there, because bunting was rare. From a tactical win-the-game standpoint, the bats were so lively that bunting didn't make a lot of sense. Better to swing away. And from the standpoint of "development" and "fun"--swing the bats!

In 13 and 14yo travel ball, I had a 3B who routinely cheated in to about 65ft from the batter (except when we really needed him back). I liked it. Whatever we gave away we got back and more, IMO, because it took away slow rollers; probably messed with the batters' heads; and, perhaps most important, fired up our whole team.