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  • Size of Lead at First Base

    For hs ball, what do you think the size of the lead should be? Should it be, generally, an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead or should it be a comfortable/get a good jump lead? Thoughts?
    Major Figure

  • #2
    I think it would depend upon the quickness of the runner and the quickness of the pitcher.

    Some teams my son played against they took 3 1/2 step lead. Other teams it was only 2 steps.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by omg View Post
      For hs ball, what do you think the size of the lead should be? Should it be, generally, an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead or should it be a comfortable/get a good jump lead? Thoughts?
      Basically, I taught two steps, shuffle, shuffle. We also taught "out far, back fast" for the secondary lead. I was never one for the Little League dance in HS. We also gave signals from third to adjust leads.
      "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
      - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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      • #4
        As far out as the runner can get back. This will vary on base stealing potential. A kid who isn't going to steal doesn't need to risk getting picked. I've seen kids who read pitchers well get way out. In travel we practiced not getting picked off. We had the kids find out where too far was. At second the runner walks until the pitcher makes him stop.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by omg View Post
          For hs ball, what do you think the size of the lead should be? Should it be, generally, an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead or should it be a comfortable/get a good jump lead? Thoughts?
          First, let's define the typical situation. In competitive HS ball, most of the time R1 isn't stealing.

          For example, our town's HS team had a very good W-L record*, and stole 30 bases. Let's assume 10 of those were on semi-contested/un-contested first and third steals of second, and that another five were steals of third. That leaves 15 straight steals of second. Less than one per game.

          The huge majority of the time, then, HS R1's aren't stealing, and the primary leads should be either: (1.) "an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead"; or, (2.) a safe avoid-getting-picked-off lead.
          _____________________

          *IOW, we were leading a lot, and therefore in a position to attempt steals
          Last edited by skipper5; 12-12-2012, 07:04 PM.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
            First, let's define the typical situation. In competitive HS ball, most of the time R1 isn't stealing.

            For example, our town's HS team had a very good W-L record*, and stole 30 bases. Let's assume 10 of those were on semi-contested/un-contested first and third steals of second, and that another five were steals of third. That leaves 15 straight steals of second.

            The huge majority of the time, then, HS R1's aren't stealing, and the primary leads should be either: 1. "an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead"; or 2. a safe avoid-getting-picked-off lead.
            _____________________

            *IOW, we were leading a lot, and therefore in a position to attempt steals
            Then you weigh this against the number of picks per year...... Maybe Scorekeeper can weigh in here.
            Last edited by Jake Patterson; 12-12-2012, 06:20 PM.
            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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            • #7
              In HS ball, what should the primary lead be if R1 expects that he might get a steal sign?

              It depends.

              The Maury Wills-types take a riskier in-your-face lead, pay a price in dive-backs, and often get a somewhat delayed jump if they're asked to steal.*

              The Lou Brock-types take a less risky lead--playing possum to some degree-- and can (but don't necessarily do) get a somewhat better jump (or even go pre-first-move on a RHP**) if they're asked to steal.
              _______________________

              *Except if they're one of those gifted kids who reads the pitchers' moves like a book. In my experience, these are rarer than in other people's experience.
              ** That is, against a pitcher who doesn't vary his holds. Although, forgive me, I forgot, on the internet, ALL HS pitchers vary their holds...hit spots...etc.
              Last edited by skipper5; 12-12-2012, 06:37 PM.
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              • #8
                Well that's not right. I posted a legitimate response to this thread and it was simply deleted. I mentioned I wasn't a coach and that it was what helped me at the time. At least explain why - it's only fair.
                "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
                  Well that's not right. I posted a legitimate response to this thread and it was simply deleted. I mentioned I wasn't a coach and that it was what helped me at the time. At least explain why - it's only fair.

                  Ben I went back and checked - there were no posts deleted.
                  "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                  - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                  Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                    Ben I went back and checked - there were no posts deleted.
                    Thanks Jake for looking it up. I honestly didn't think it would happen here, but it was listed and was there after I relogged. Something's goofy. But anyway, thanks for letting me know.
                    "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                      We also taught "out far, back fast" for the secondary lead..
                      That one is going on a post-it on my wall.
                      I teach that also; but not with such economy of words.
                      Last edited by Jake Patterson; 12-12-2012, 06:40 PM.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
                        That one is going on a post-it on my wall.
                        I teach that also; but not with such economy of words.
                        I totally agree with Jake's "out far, back fast" idea. Make sure your runners are on the balls of their feet and not lying on their heels. It sounds simple enough, but I've seen more kids either get picked or not get a jump - especially deep in a count due to loss of intensity - by not being on the balls of their feet.
                        "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
                          I totally agree with Jake's "out far, back fast" idea. Make sure your runners are on the balls of their feet and not lying on their heels. It sounds simple enough, but I've seen more kids either get picked or not get a jump - especially deep in a count due to loss of intensity - by not being on the balls of their feet.
                          Ben, I hear what you're saying, but not sure if you're aware that Jake's 'out far, back fast' was referring to secondary leads.

                          In my experience, pickoff are considerably more prevalent in 13-14 yo baseball (rec and travel) than in 16-18yo baseball. Partly due to inexperience of players and coaches; partly due to the 13-14 yo attention span..."especially deep in a count due to loss of intensity", to borrow your phrase. Also, safer (less risky) leads at older ages because there's less stealing.
                          Last edited by skipper5; 12-12-2012, 07:25 PM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by omg View Post
                            For hs ball, what do you think the size of the lead should be? Should it be, generally, an aggressive/distract the pitcher lead or should it be a comfortable/get a good jump lead? Thoughts?
                            one plus three. So 4 steps. Crossover and dive back.

                            3 steps is generally the length of your body with arms extended.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
                              In HS ball, what should the primary lead be if R1 expects that he might get a steal sign?

                              It depends.

                              The Maury Wills-types take a riskier in-your-face lead, pay a price in dive-backs, and often get a somewhat delayed jump if they're asked to steal.*

                              The Lou Brock-types take a less risky lead--playing possum to some degree-- and can (but don't necessarily do) get a somewhat better jump (or even go pre-first-move on a RHP**) if they're asked to steal.
                              _______________________

                              *Except if they're one of those gifted kids who reads the pitchers' moves like a book. In my experience, these are rarer than in other people's experience.
                              ** That is, against a pitcher who doesn't vary his holds. Although, forgive me, I forgot, on the internet, ALL HS pitchers vary their holds...hit spots...etc.
                              For me stealing depends on who we are stealing on. Pitcher or catcher. we teach our players different keys for pitcher and chart each pitcher.

                              Keys we use for pitcher are:

                              Shoulder rolls down and in before pitching.- (stealing)
                              Pitcher leans towards home before pitching. - (stealing)
                              Normal pitcher watch feet - (stealing)
                              Balk move upper or lower - (not stealing avoid pick)
                              Quick pick prior to coming set - (not stealing avoid pick)
                              U - C - L - A (stealing)

                              We have numbers for all the keys and we watch the pitcher and determine what key they are. If they are a Key 1, when given the steal sign they are only running on that key. If pitcher changes and does not show the key, we are not running we just go into our secondary. Pitcher can be a Key and a UCLA guy.

                              we also have keys for runner at second.

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