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  • 2 out deep lead at second base

    Skip's thread at 3rd got me thinking about the lead at 2nd when the the runner gets a few feet deep in order to create a better angle to score. Does everyone buy into this? Should every player on the team do it? Only with 2 outs? What are the considerations?
    Major Figure

  • #2
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    Skip's thread at 3rd got me thinking about the lead at 2nd when the the runner gets a few feet deep in order to create a better angle to score. Does everyone buy into this? Should every player on the team do it? Only with 2 outs? What are the considerations?
    I am a big supporter of this no matter how many outs there are. I instruct to take a deeper lead, and slowly creep forward while the pitcher is in the stretch. It is easier to take of in a direction from a moving stance than a idle stance. It is very hard to explain, I will try and find a video of this.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MD Diamond Sports View Post
      I am a big supporter of this no matter how many outs there are. I instruct to take a deeper lead, and slowly creep forward while the pitcher is in the stretch. It is easier to take of in a direction from a moving stance than a idle stance. It is very hard to explain, I will try and find a video of this.
      Does this negatively effect the ability of the runner to steal 3rd base? Are they slowly creeping forward toward third base or towards the base line?
      Major Figure

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MD Diamond Sports View Post
        I am a big supporter of this no matter how many outs there are. I instruct to take a deeper lead, and slowly creep forward while the pitcher is in the stretch. It is easier to take of in a direction from a moving stance than a idle stance. It is very hard to explain, I will try and find a video of this.
        Agree with this ^
        I preach this lead no matter the outs. Always start deep and creep forward. Get a big secondary lead and get bigger every pitch (test the catcher. you might find an opportunity to get an easy steal to 3B). Always get back quickly.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by omg View Post
          Does this negatively effect the ability of the runner to steal 3rd base? Are they slowly creeping forward toward third base or towards the base line?
          For me, to be specific - I have them start deep and creep in and over. So essentially, one step towards the pitcher and one step towards third. Then another in each direction. and so on... Of course its more of one diagonal step, but the idea is the same.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by omg View Post
            Does this negatively effect the ability of the runner to steal 3rd base? Are they slowly creeping forward toward third base or towards the base line?
            This all depends on the age group. My high school kids are able to time the pitcher on a steal sign, to land with their left foot, pivot, and drive. The creeping forward is closer to the grass. You do not want them to creep towards third, because their momentum will be hard to transfer back to get back to second. Younger kids you show to take smaller shuffle steps, this allows them to transfer the weight faster if there is a steal sign on.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
              For me, to be specific - I have them start deep and creep in and over. So essentially, one step towards the pitcher and one step towards third. Then another in each direction. and so on... Of course its more of one diagonal step, but the idea is the same.
              I am not a fan of the diagonal step, However, I have high school players that do it, and are very efficient with it. Again, you have to know the base running ability of your players. This is a more advanced base running technique. It has more components, and requires better base running ability than a normal lead-off from second.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MD Diamond Sports View Post
                This all depends on the age group. My high school kids are able to time the pitcher on a steal sign, to land with their left foot, pivot, and drive. The creeping forward is closer to the grass. You do not want them to creep towards third, because their momentum will be hard to transfer back to get back to second. Younger kids you show to take smaller shuffle steps, this allows them to transfer the weight faster if there is a steal sign on.
                So if you have them creep toward the grass, ie, the baseline between 2nd and 3rd, what is the point of getting the deep lead to improve the angle of scoring from 2nd?
                Major Figure

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by omg View Post
                  So if you have them creep toward the grass, ie, the baseline between 2nd and 3rd, what is the point of getting the deep lead to improve the angle of scoring from 2nd?
                  My philosophy is never do anything on two outs that you would not with less (Base running wise). Why is scoring any more important with two out, rather than one? I hate getting the third out at home, I would rather it be the first out. As a third base coach I am not going to do anything different with my runner depending on outs. It does not take many steps to get yourself to the angle to cut third. Plus, 2R is going to have a quicker jump with the moving technique.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by omg View Post
                    Skip's thread at 3rd got me thinking about the lead at 2nd when the the runner gets a few feet deep in order to create a better angle to score. Does everyone buy into this? Should every player on the team do it? Only with 2 outs? What are the considerations?
                    I teach a deep lead and stay deep with 2 outs or if there is a runner at 3rd. Thinking is I want to create a good angle around 3rd and I want it created early.

                    With 1 or 0 outs, with an open 3rd. I teach a straight lead. Shortest distance to 3rd.

                    Exception is fast runner at 2nd with 2 outs and open 3rd and we have a read on pitcher, we will sometimes go straight lead with the mind set of taking 3rd.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MD Diamond Sports View Post
                      I am a big supporter of this no matter how many outs there are. I instruct to take a deeper lead, and slowly creep forward while the pitcher is in the stretch. It is easier to take of in a direction from a moving stance than a idle stance. It is very hard to explain, I will try and find a video of this.
                      Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
                      Agree with this ^
                      I preach this lead no matter the outs. Always start deep and creep forward. Get a big secondary lead and get bigger every pitch (test the catcher. you might find an opportunity to get an easy steal to 3B). Always get back quickly.
                      If you have a straight lead you can continue to move as well.

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                      • #12
                        What's interesting, is the perception it gives the pitcher from the mound.

                        By being back further off the baseline, the runner can actually get a little bit longer lead than if he were right on the line, and still look as though he's not as far off from the base just because of the angle.....so we have our players back off the line (within reason) regardless of the number of outs.

                        It also forces F6 to take a different angle to the bag when they do make a PO attempt.

                        With the runner on the line, F6 can come right in behind the runner in "Back!" bluffs, and then take a more direct line to the bag on a "Daylight" pick, compared to where he's moving when the runner is positioned deeper off the base path.

                        Now I've seen some kids way back, quite close to F6, which is a bit extreme and ridiculous (makes a PO with F4 much easier), but a couple steps off the line is IMO preferable regardless of outs for R2 in most all situations.

                        We teach it by having our runners actually going to the mound and seeing for themselves how it looks from F1's viewpoint with runners in the different positions on the field.

                        Simply have the runner take a lead on the line, have the guy on the mound look at him from the "stretch", then have F1 look away, have the runner take a couple steps back off the line, and then have F1 look again.

                        It is pretty amazing at what they'll see comparatively.
                        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HYP View Post
                          If you have a straight lead you can continue to move as well.
                          However, you can only move horizontally. More space for 2R to get his momentum the wrong way, with a pick-off move on.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                            What's interesting, is the perception it gives the pitcher from the mound.

                            By being back further off the baseline, the runner can actually get a little bit longer lead than if he were right on the line, and still look as though he's not as far off from the base just because of the angle.....so we have our players back off the line (within reason) regardless of the number of outs.

                            It also forces F6 to take a different angle to the bag when they do make a PO attempt.

                            With the runner on the line, F6 can come right in behind the runner in "Back!" bluffs, and then take a more direct line to the bag on a "Daylight" pick, compared to where he's moving when the runner is positioned deeper off the base path.

                            Now I've seen some kids way back, quite close to F6, which is a bit extreme and ridiculous (makes a PO with F4 much easier), but a couple steps off the line is IMO preferable regardless of outs for R2 in most all situations.

                            We teach it by having our runners actually going to the mound and seeing for themselves how it looks from F1's viewpoint with runners in the different positions on the field.

                            Simply have the runner take a lead on the line, have the guy on the mound look at him from the "stretch", then have F1 look away, have the runner take a couple steps back off the line, and then have F1 look again.

                            It is pretty amazing at what they'll see comparatively.
                            I agree with your comment about the angles. So, if 2B is actually farther off the base, and back, they are relatively the same distance to third. Also, farther back, if 2R has a steal, he can go into the back corner of the bag.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                              What's interesting, is the perception it gives the pitcher from the mound.

                              By being back further off the baseline, the runner can actually get a little bit longer lead than if he were right on the line, and still look as though he's not as far off from the base just because of the angle.....so we have our players back off the line (within reason) regardless of the number of outs.

                              It also forces F6 to take a different angle to the bag when they do make a PO attempt.

                              With the runner on the line, F6 can come right in behind the runner in "Back!" bluffs, and then take a more direct line to the bag on a "Daylight" pick, compared to where he's moving when the runner is positioned deeper off the base path.

                              Now I've seen some kids way back, quite close to F6, which is a bit extreme and ridiculous (makes a PO with F4 much easier), but a couple steps off the line is IMO preferable regardless of outs for R2 in most all situations.

                              We teach it by having our runners actually going to the mound and seeing for themselves how it looks from F1's viewpoint with runners in the different positions on the field.

                              Simply have the runner take a lead on the line, have the guy on the mound look at him from the "stretch", then have F1 look away, have the runner take a couple steps back off the line, and then have F1 look again.

                              It is pretty amazing at what they'll see comparatively.
                              For me, my pitchers pick when told to. In other words, I either put the pick on or my SS does. So the perception of distance does not come into play.

                              Comment

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