stealing third w/ 1 out and 2 strikes: what does "the book" say?

[skipper5]

"The Book" says only attempt to steal third with one out, except if it's a gimme.

What does "The Book" say about attempting to steal third with one out, 2 strikes on the batter? (Apart from your personal opinions on the advisability of doing this).

If the pitch is strike three, then effectively you're stealing third with two outs.

IOW, when you're flashing steal, you're potentially calling for a 2-out steal.

[tg643]

I wrote my own book on stealing third. If I saw a pitcher where stealing third should be easy we had a "green light if you get the right jump" sign. The simple rule was don't EVER get thrown out stealing third. I'm giving you the green light so you can get your walking lead and big jump. If there's any doubt don't go. From 13U to 16U only one kid was thrown out. He was the fastest kid I ever coached. But he hesitated. The team rule if you hesitate, don't go.

[MD Diamond Sports]

I wrote my own book on stealing third. If I saw a pitcher where stealing third should be easy we had a "green light if you get the right jump" sign. The simple rule was don't EVER get thrown out stealing third. I'm giving you the green light so you can get your walking lead and big jump. If there's any doubt don't go. From 13U to 16U only one kid was thrown out. He was the fastest kid I ever coached. But he hesitated. The team rule if you hesitate, don't go.

I would like to read this book.

[mudvnine]

I wrote my own book on stealing third. If I saw a pitcher where stealing third should be easy we had a "green light if you get the right jump" sign. The simple rule was don't EVER get thrown out.....

I have the same sign (intent wise) for certain runners (read as meaning: "not all runners"), regardless of the base they're standing on, or number of outs.

Same thing goes however.....if you're gonna run DO NOT get thrown out. It's a "go" ONLY if you know you have the pitcher, and know that you'll be popping up on the bag as the throw arrives.

(Bold/underling for emphasis on importance of point being made to the player, not yelling.)

[Cannonball]

Can't top any responses here! ^^^^^^WHAT THEY SAID ^^^^^^^^^

[skipper5]

In developmental baseball--for instance, 13u-16u travel, or frosh/JV--it arguably might be better to loosen the "don't-get-thrown-out-if-you-attempt-it" criteria for green light steals of third.

When the coach is more tolerant of making outs at third on green-light steals, the players will attempt it more, with each attempt creating a potential teachable moment, regardless of the result.

For this reason, in 13-16u, I'd tailor my green-light 3B-steal instructions to produce, say, a 70% success rate.
I'm guessing that's the rate for my teams.

More risk, more learning.

[mudvnine]

In developmental baseball--for instance, 13u-16u travel, or frosh/JV--it arguably might be better to loosen the "don't-get-thrown-out-if-you-attempt-it" criteria for green light steals of third.

In my book, "green light" means.....you don't have a steal sign, but if YOU think you can make it, take it.....but the results (good or bad) are on YOU.

If I give the steal sign and the runner is thrown out, the bad results are on ME....and I take full responsibility for them.

When the coach is more tolerant of making outs at third on green-light steals, the players will attempt it more, with each attempt creating a potential teachable moment, regardless of the result.

I don't want them to "attempt it more".....I only want them to attempt it when they know they can make it. If I wanted more attempted steals at third (or any base for that matter), I'd call for them with a steal sign.

The "teachable moment" is that one must take full responsibility for ones' action....good or bad.

If a player expects me to be pleased or happy with his decision to stay, or make it safely if he does go....why should he not expect me to be disappointed or angry when he makes a poor decision and gets himself thrown out?

For this reason, in 13-16u, I'd tailor my green-light 3B-steal instructions to produce, say, a 70% success rate.
I'm guessing that's the rate for my teams.

More risk, more learning.

I can agree with this for players below HS (the level which I'm writing about), but once in HS, a player should already know his ability to read and run, one way or the other in preseason practices and games. When regular season starts, all "free passes" are off the table.

And Skip, I'm not talking about raking the player over the coals when he gets caught. I'm merely talking about a stern look, and a "C'mon man, what were ya thinking?".....I know he's gonna have to go out and play defense in a short while, and don't needing him taking that out there with him.
Unless of coures it's the last out of the game....then he will certainly "learn" from that "teachable moment". :grouchy:headbeat:

[Cannonball]

We had a signal where I showed a fist to the runner at 2nd. What I was signaling was, "I want you to steal 3rd." However, the runner knew that he had to be safe. He also knew that he didn't have to steal. IOWs, I want you BUT if you don't think you can make it then you don't have to steal. A part of the reasoning for this was to let the runner understand their limits. Now, if they got thrown out, I would not be happy. However, what was really going to happen? I'd take them over to the side of the dugout and talk to them about why they were thrown out. It isn't like I would bench them and it isn't like I'd give that signal to someone I didn't think had the ability to steal the base.

[tg643]

I have the same sign (intent wise) for certain runners (read as meaning: "not all runners"), regardless of the base they're standing on, or number of outs.

Same thing goes however.....if you're gonna run DO NOT get thrown out. It's a "go" ONLY if you know you have the pitcher, and know that you'll be popping up on the bag as the throw arrives.

(Bold/underling for emphasis on importance of point being made to the player, not yelling.)

I had about six players per year with speed AND showed the correct judgement. They were typically the ones who got the sign. Then there were situations where the opposition was just poor at keeping runners from staying too far off second.

We once won a game 1-0 while getting no hit ... walk, bunt, steal and over throw of third. The catcher had no business making the throw given the jump. He hurried and launched the ball.

[tg643]

In developmental baseball--for instance, 13u-16u travel, or frosh/JV--it arguably might be better to loosen the "don't-get-thrown-out-if-you-attempt-it" criteria for green light steals of third.

When the coach is more tolerant of making outs at third on green-light steals, the players will attempt it more, with each attempt creating a potential teachable moment, regardless of the result.

For this reason, in 13-16u, I'd tailor my green-light 3B-steal instructions to produce, say, a 70% success rate.
I'm guessing that's the rate for my teams.

More risk, more learning.

I was dealing with top end travel kids. I think 70% is low for third given it's about the jump, not outrunning the throw. Second is also about the jump. But some kids can just outrun the throw to second.

[omg]

I was dealing with top end travel kids. I think 70% is low for third given it's about the jump, not outrunning the throw. Second is also about the jump. But some kids can just outrun the throw to second.

Top end travel kids? That means top end catchers, pitchers, middle infielders, and coaches. I doubt a 70 % success rate unless stealing 3rd was done infrequently. Did opponents have a 70% success rate against your teams?

[tg643]

Top end travel kids? That means top end catchers, pitchers, middle infielders, and coaches. I doubt a 70 % success rate unless stealing 3rd was done infrequently. Did opponents have a 70% success rate against your teams?

I was talking about my kids. We were ranked #4-6 in the tri state area over those three years. But regardless, I expect stealing third to be 100%. If a good base runner can pick his pitch to go he should make it. He's not stealing on the catcher. He's stealing off the pitcher. He's looking for the walking lead where the pitcher doesn't make come to a stop. Over those three years only one runner was thrown out stealing third. He hesitated. We had some fast kids. I don't know what theyre pre high school times were. But six of them were 6.8 or better in high school.

Defensely we didn't give up many steals of third. Our pitching coach did a good job with pitchers making the runner on second come to a stop. We had three quality catchers and a good catching coach. I was fortunate to have a local friend who caught in college and his kid was the same age as the team and talented. He's now catching in the Big Ten. Catching instruction typically tends to be lacking.

Our teams won a lot of close games by doing the little things right. A lot of 13U and 14U teams are poorly coached by dads.

[skipper5]

Over those three years only one runner was thrown out stealing third.

Tg,
I don't doubt your memory, so I've got to say that's one of the most amazing stats I've ever seen.
Let's say those 13-16u teams played 120 games over their 3 years, and stole third every other game.
That's 59 SB's of third in 60 attempts, a 98% success rate.

Where we differ is that you think a 98% success rate is a good thing, whereas I think it means the coaches were too conservative.

[omg]

I was talking about my kids. We were ranked #4-6 in the tri state area over those three years. But regardless, I expect stealing third to be 100%. If a good base runner can pick his pitch to go he should make it. He's not stealing on the catcher. He's stealing off the pitcher. He's looking for the walking lead where the pitcher doesn't make come to a stop. Over those three years only one runner was thrown out stealing third. He hesitated. We had some fast kids. I don't know what theyre pre high school times were. But six of them were 6.8 or better in high school.

Defensely we didn't give up many steals of third. Our pitching coach did a good job with pitchers making the runner on second come to a stop. We had three quality catchers and a good catching coach. I was fortunate to have a local friend who caught in college and his kid was the same age as the team and talented. He's now catching in the Big Ten. Catching instruction typically tends to be lacking.

Our teams won a lot of close games by doing the little things right. A lot of 13U and 14U teams are poorly coached by dads.

I don't doubt what you are saying-your teams stole 3rd well and your team stopped other teams from stealing well. Sounds like unbalanced competition, though. I'm never interested in what a team can or cannot do in unbalanced competition. No point. It doesn't matter.

[skipper5]

I don't doubt what you are saying-your teams stole 3rd well and your team stopped other teams from stealing well. Sounds like unbalanced competition, though. I'm never interested in what a team can or cannot do in unbalanced competition. No point. It doesn't matter.

omg, that's a great point. There's not much learning going on in unbalanced competition.