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Is throwing a slider safe for a HS Freshman?

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  • Root,

    You’re getting excited because people don’t agree with your position. That’s life, so you better get used to it if. The studies you seem to put so much faith in are good for what they do, but they don’t provide the final answers.

    What you’re doing is trying to state what Dr. Andrews believes, and that’s not a good thing to do unless it’s a position statement he’s written. Rather than argue with a bunch of folks like myself, why not contact him or ASMI people directly and hash it out with them? That’s one thing I’ve always admired about Doc Marshall. He will take the time to talk to you, and people who do that, almost always come away with a much better understanding of what he believes and why, than arguing on some bulletin board.

    I don’t want to argue with you about this any longer because its obvious you refuse to understand that I believe my reasons for not having kids throw curves are just as valid as yours for letting them throw whatever they want without worry. This is similar to the argument on HSBBW where one of the old timers there believes it’s a waste of time for HS pitchers to work on or throw a CU, because that won’t help them get a ‘ship or get drafted. Many there all PO’d at me because I won’t admit that I’m wrong because they’re right.

    Personally, I couldn’t care less what you do as a coach because there’s nothing I can do about it. All I know is, our two philosophes don’t coincide, and I always prefer to err on the side of caution because I CAN’T trust that all coaches know enough to protect the kids. It’s the same with rest between outings for pitchers, or any other pitching limitations. Do whatever you please, but I strongly suggest you communicate directly with Dr. Andrews rather than continuing to try to interpret why he says the things he does.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
      My youngest (kid mentioned above) does pitch in relief at the HS, and does throw a CB if you will...one that is more of a "grip" CB that he throws the same as his FB, with pronation.....but now I have to question with I'm calling "pronation", after reading Dirt's post here on "forearm flyout end of range of motion supination at drive and release.

      I always made sure he pronated on the follow-through, but never bothered (wasn't educated enough) to look at where he was at "drive and release"......I think it's very obvious toggling between the two drive and release frame of d-mac's son clip in another thread. At first look, I thought he "pronated" his pitch, but from drive to and at release, there are obvious supination forces at work there in that video clip.

      Maybe not the same as supinating a CB from drive continuing through the follow-through, but supination forces happening in that particular video nonetheless.....
      I’ve always wondered how 12/6 rotation can be put on a pitched/thrown ball when the forearm is pronating. The best I can see is the forearm has to be neutral at release to get the 12/6 rotation.
      The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
        Hmmm, unless I'm reading it wrong, I don't see anywhere that percentages of injuries are reported in the "results", "conclusion", or "clinical relevance" of the report you posted as proof......where can I find it in there?

        But Root, here's the problem with the study, as I see it. From my youth playing days, had I been surveyed in that study, I would have been classified as one of the "non-injured" (or however they defined no surgery), as I pitched until my freshman year of HS, much of the time with elbow pain (that I quietly attributed to the CB, because that's when I felt it the most) that was simply treated with ice and sometimes even rest if I was lucky.

        After HS, I continued to experience elbow pain when throwing with friends, or at pickup baseball/softball games (IOWs, didn't play in college), with the elbow pain showing up in a lesser number of throws as the years went on.....until the point that I now can't throw over 100' without significant pain in my elbow.

        I've all but quit trying to throw BP to the HS kids, and playing catch with my HS senior is pretty much a waste of his time, other than simply him spending quality time with pops, laughing at the old man trying to reach him 120' away (which I can't, as it hurts too damn much to exert that kind of force to get it that far).

        So while kids are young they might not necessarily feel the effects of a CB (or FB for that matter) right away to move the needle on a study, I can assure you that they are not without injury caused by bones banging around in there. I'm no doctor, but I sure as heck can feel what was going on in my own arm, and I sure as hell don't want to be a contributing cause of it to happen to one of my players.

        My youngest (kid mentioned above) does pitch in relief at the HS, and does throw a CB if you will...one that is more of a "grip" CB that he throws the same as his FB, with pronation.....but now I have to question with I'm calling "pronation", after reading Dirt's post here on "forearm flyout end of range of motion supination at drive and release"

        I always made sure he pronated on the follow-through, but never bothered (wasn't educated enough) to look at where he was at "drive and release"......I think it's very obvious toggling between the two drive and release frame of d-mac's son clip in another thread. At first look, I thought he "pronated" his pitch, but from drive to and at release, there are obvious supination forces at work there in that video clip.

        Maybe not the same as supinating a CB from drive continuing through the follow-through, but supination forces happening in that particular video nonetheless.....
        That's the Nissen study. I posted three. Look at the youth study from ASMI. Sure the study is limited, but it is what's out there. There aren't many other methods that could do any better. The point is that the only studies done so far were done with the purpose in mind of proving that the curve produces more force and is more dangerous than the fastball. They were unable to do so.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
          Root,

          You’re getting excited because people don’t agree with your position. That’s life, so you better get used to it if. The studies you seem to put so much faith in are good for what they do, but they don’t provide the final answers.

          What you’re doing is trying to state what Dr. Andrews believes, and that’s not a good thing to do unless it’s a position statement he’s written. Rather than argue with a bunch of folks like myself, why not contact him or ASMI people directly and hash it out with them? That’s one thing I’ve always admired about Doc Marshall. He will take the time to talk to you, and people who do that, almost always come away with a much better understanding of what he believes and why, than arguing on some bulletin board.

          I don’t want to argue with you about this any longer because its obvious you refuse to understand that I believe my reasons for not having kids throw curves are just as valid as yours for letting them throw whatever they want without worry. This is similar to the argument on HSBBW where one of the old timers there believes it’s a waste of time for HS pitchers to work on or throw a CU, because that won’t help them get a ‘ship or get drafted. Many there all PO’d at me because I won’t admit that I’m wrong because they’re right.

          Personally, I couldn’t care less what you do as a coach because there’s nothing I can do about it. All I know is, our two philosophes don’t coincide, and I always prefer to err on the side of caution because I CAN’T trust that all coaches know enough to protect the kids. It’s the same with rest between outings for pitchers, or any other pitching limitations. Do whatever you please, but I strongly suggest you communicate directly with Dr. Andrews rather than continuing to try to interpret why he says the things he does.
          SK,

          Wow. You keep this up. I don't ahve a problem with Dr. Andrews or ASMI. They HAVE stated what they conclude. You just don't want to believe it. Not only do you ignore it, but you act as if ASMI says the opposite of its clearly defined conclusion. I'll stop beating a dead horse. It's a FACT that the only studies out there support the position I'm taking. I have challenged you or anyone else not to tell me how you think the study is flawed, but provide clinical research (ANY CLINICAL RESEARCH) that backs up your position. Obviously, you can't because the studies have been done and they do not back you up.

          By the way, your reasons aren't as valid as mine. Mine are supported by clinically researched evidence. Yours are supported by myth. I don't take issue with your positions as much as the bizarre use of logic you employee. But, if you say your done with this topic, I, too can leave it alone.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Roothog66 View Post
            That's the Nissen study. I posted three. Look at the youth study from ASMI. Sure the study is limited, but it is what's out there. There aren't many other methods that could do any better. The point is that the only studies done so far were done with the purpose in mind of proving that the curve produces more force and is more dangerous than the fastball. They were unable to do so.
            I have not a single doubt that the studies proved exactly what they set out to prove, but what I don't believed they proved is the actual bone on bone kinesiological movements/impingements (ie. wear) placed upon the bones/cartilages of the elbow, between the two different pitches.

            I just believe that with all of the modern motion sensing/mapping equipment available out there today, that a much more concise study should be able to be done, rather than simply measuring "force" as the only thing being looked at, and as a result definitive conclusions being made upon them.

            Call me "cautious", but when it comes to young players' arm, and from my own personal experience of where I've ended up, I sleep much better, "being safe than sorry.....but also understand that that is just my personal opinion, and hold nothing against those who feel differently.
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

            Comment


            • Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
              I’ve always wondered how 12/6 rotation can be put on a pitched/thrown ball when the forearm is pronating. The best I can see is the forearm has to be neutral at release to get the 12/6 rotation.
              Which is is achieved by starting out in a supinated position.

              The problem, which is due in large part to Marshall's communication style, is that most people are pronating too early.
              Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

              I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

              Comment


              • Rootgog66,
                “Looking at slow mo video of my players, I've never seen one supinate a fastball.”
                Lets see this slow mo footage if you really have it? Is this slow mo also low frame rate?

                The problem is you are mis-diagnosing what you think your seeing or misjudging when pronation makes the difference and that’s not after release by involuntary snap back pronation after full range of motion supination. This is exactly what all do just like Chris did in the other resent thread and gets it wrong every time. Then they put out their prognostications and the false ball gets a rolling and everybody repeats the fail.

                All these kids are actually supinating their fastball’s making the conclusions of these studies correct but the pathology statements false because there is actually pronated drive pitches that can be used but are not. They only measured stress as equal in all, meaning they do not recognize pronated pitches or applied anatomy.
                The questions they fail to answer is the stress injurious or non-injurious.
                Primum non nocere

                Comment


                • Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
                  I’ve always wondered how 12/6 rotation can be put on a pitched/thrown ball when the forearm is pronating. The best I can see is the forearm has to be neutral at release to get the 12/6 rotation.
                  Maybe you are thinking slurve rather than curve. Both the elbow and the shoulder move similarly in the fast ball and the curve. In a fast ball the thumb points medially with the back of the fingers up whereas in the curve it points upward. The forearm in the curve is rotated 90 degrees laterally which if continued beyond that would be supination. Now deviate the wrist medially while holding the ball between the thumb and middle finger and, to a lesser degree, the index finger.

                  The arm goes through the same motions as a fast ball. The ball is snapped between the thumb and middle finger. Practice getting that 12 to 6 spin away from the pitcher just watching T.V. or sitting on the can. Snap your fingers while holding the ball until you can achieve a good audible snap and get the desired rotation. Then add the arm motion and the flexed wrist. The wrist deviates a bit to the little finger side. The ball pivots over the index finger rotating away from the pitcher.

                  Comment


                  • SK,

                    “I’ve always wondered how 12/6 rotation can be put on a pitched/thrown ball when the forearm is pronating. The best I can see is the forearm has to be neutral at release to get the 12/6 rotation.”
                    You can powerfully pronate snap the drive on a backspin fastball (12/6) if the middle finger tip releases the ball directly from beneath the ball. The problem here is it is easier to hit (unless it is up in the zone) than lateral moving fastballs.

                    All curves supinate the drive and release because the Humerus and forearm are flying outwards in some degree even if 12/6 is achieved!

                    Pronation can only be done from one position with a curve and Dr.Marshall invented it.
                    The reason it can be done is because the Latissimus Dorsi becomes the primary mover when the Humerus is vertical and the forearm is inside of vertical where the hand can pass above the ball and the drive finger is actually pushing the spin from up over the top and on to the other side of it. This is very difficult but can be done with the proper motor devices and drills. I have had several kids develop what is known as overspin (past 12/6) where the ball breaks towards the ball arm side, wicked nasty pitch and virtually unhittable.
                    Primum non nocere

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                      …Call me "cautious", but when it comes to young players' arm, and from my own personal experience of where I've ended up, I sleep much better, "being safe than sorry.....but also understand that that is just my personal opinion, and hold nothing against those who feel differently.
                      Doesn’t matter what your reasons are, they’re based on a myth and are therefore without merit. Reminds me of the old saw: Patient, “Hey doc, my arm hurts when I do this.” Doc, “Then don’t do that!”
                      The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
                        Doesn’t matter what your reasons are, they’re based on a myth and are therefore without merit.
                        Yep, sort of like the Creation or Evolution "myths".....one of them can't be correct, but there are plenty of people who will give you a bunch of "reasons" (shrouded as "facts") on why their "myth" is the right one.
                        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                          All these kids are actually supinating their fastball’s...
                          I have a high speed camera and have filmed large numbers of kids and have never seen this.
                          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                          Comment


                          • I totally agree!
                            Primum non nocere

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                              I totally agree!
                              LOL!! Why did I know that was coming as soon as I read that post (and thought the same thing).....
                              In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by scorekeeper View Post
                                I’ve always wondered how 12/6 rotation can be put on a pitched/thrown ball when the forearm is pronating. The best I can see is the forearm has to be neutral at release to get the 12/6 rotation.
                                Score,
                                I don't know if this is Marshall's design on how we do a pronated "sinker" (12-6 curve) or not. We stumbled on it when trying to get a better curve. You basically "hook" your fingers over top the ball. Then when you're pronating your release your fingers hook those top seems and put forward spin on the ball. Think screwball, but with your fingers catching the seems on top of the ball vs on the backside for a screwball.

                                Comment

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