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Is throwing a slider safe for a HS Freshman?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    Superior as in overall performance -No... But I believe it's less injurious.
    OK. So is playing video game baseball. Let me change the question. Do you believe that his methodology is a viable alternative as far as pitching performance is concerned?

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by daque View Post
      OK. So is playing video game baseball. Let me change the question. Do you believe that his methodology is a viable alternative as far as pitching performance is concerned?
      I believe that Doc was instrumental in forcing baseball to think differently about the injurious nature of conventional pitching... and more important, the culpability poor coaching has in overuse and injuries inflicted on thousands of young men. I believe his methodology is so radical that few have embraced it or are able to teach it. I believe professional baseball resists anything different inspite of data presented mostly because of the dogma-induced ignorance many in the game have. I have attended many and sponsored and organized (for ten years) some of the biggest coaching clinics in NE U.S. Every one of these clinics had an orthopedist or kenesiologist speak. To include Dr. Michael Joyce - they all agree what we do hurts arms.

      So what does this all mean? I believe Doc's work was revolutionary, but he developed a method difficult to replicate and teach... I believe there are others who are now teaching a modified version of his work and are having greater success. One in particular had me throwing pain free for the first time in 20 years (I have since retired and can still throw pain free using a different method than I was taught years ago.)

      I hope that answers your question?
      "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
      - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

      Comment


      • #93
        Thanks for all the insights. I appreciate all of the knowledge and help I get on here. Just an update. The pitching coach who was going to work with my son on a slider is now working exclusively with the Varsity squad. There's a former Major League pitcher who came in today to work with the freshman pitchers. He's volunteering to come in "frequently" to work with the pitchers. He showed my son new CU and CB grips. He wants my son to throw FB and CU, then work in an occasional CB just so the hitters know it's there. I'm much more comfortable with this. We're definitely spoiled here in AZ. Last week Kevin Long was at their practice giving pointers to the hitters. I guess last year Bob Welch came to a practice to work with the pitchers.
        Last edited by azmatsfan; 02-11-2013, 10:59 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Jake: I agree with a lot of the progress Doc has contributed to youth baseball. Any new methodology arriving on the scene for pitching mechanics will have to make the pitcher more effective to be accepted. We all agree that pitching overhand is an unnatural activity for the arm and stressful. Most likely that is why softball pitchers can go multiple games in the same day without difficulty. The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love. Just like the knees and gnarled hands of a catcher. Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem. Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster. One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear. And MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League. So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change. But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted. So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria.

          Comment


          • #95
            Daque,

            ”it is still a theory without evidence such as injured arms to support it.”
            Well, I’m not quite sure how to please your curiosity but I’m sure glad you are curious.
            First you said it was noted then you said you needed substantiation. Now your OK with
            Empirical evidence when this is what I have all ready brought to the table.

            “I need more.”
            OK, when the wrist is flexing to produce traditionally oriented forearm supination on there Cutter, Slurve, Curve, and Slider during the voluntary driveline it is not only flexing, it is also Ulnar flexing (little finger towards the forearm) powerfully, therefore the Extensor Carpi Ulnaris that attaches at the lateral epicondyle is the primary driver of ulnar flexion, tennis players suffer from this injury and curveball pitchers attain what is called “tennis elbow” that grade tears it’s tendon. These injuries are basic lack of fitness injuries. Supination effects the extensors that attach on the lateral side more.

            Kids that break the medial growth plate are contracting the Flexors group while supinating or pronating although very few know how to voluntarily pronate.

            “I have all of the empirical evidence I need regarding forced supination and the arms I described.”
            Empirical evidence (non scientifically derived) is nice and can answer questions when thought out carefully but when you say “I need more” and at the same time rely on empirical evidence for your own belief system I become enigmotized.

            “Otherwise all kids should not pitch unless you want them all to use the universally unaccepted methodology of Dr. Marshall”
            Dr.Marshall has said this even about his mechanical recommendations in regards to bone development, remember?
            What is unacceptable about pronation? What is unacceptable about rotation? What could be unacceptable about “sport specific training” ? More and more every year it is being accepted only in a bastardized hybrid form, very sad!

            For the first time one of our legendary JC coaches out here (SACC) is letting 3 of his pitchers train with iron balls and wrist weight daily while all the other pitchers shag balls for the batters as usual, one of them is now at 95 MPH. Things are gaining ground fast.

            “If it were true that pronation and supination could cause medial epicondyle injuries, then what is left? Play softball? Using my limitations.”
            Simply attain a “sport specific“ training regimen to withstand the stress!

            “Are you of the belief that Dr. Marshall's pitching technique is superior to the conventional method commonly used?”
            Absolutely!!! I have trained many kids in this manor and they all improve their velocity and command. This is how I start out the beginners then hybridize it when the coaching and societal pressure to change becomes to overbearing around 13 yo.

            In fact, all outfielder/pitchers who Crowstep in the outfield have better velocity from there than when they traditionally pitch.

            “We all agree that pitching overhand is an unnatural activity for the arm and stressful.”
            I totally disagree!!! Any range of motion you can attain is natural, this is a typical baseball cliché’ that all repeat after they hear it without thinking for themselves.
            If this were true Ogg would have never brought down that Buffalo.

            “Most likely that is why softball pitchers can go multiple games in the same day without difficulty.”
            They pitch from the other full range of motion, go figure, again non-injurious.

            “The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love.”
            This would be ignorant ones not inspired ones!!!

            “Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem.”
            Only for youth pitchers!

            “Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster.”
            Bull, they never do this, they are strictly flavor of the day.

            “One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear”
            These are marketing words, the mechanics are nothing new and fluctuate from decade to decade and person to person and always have !!

            “MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League”
            The throat protector was originated by Bill Bueler the Dodger trainer to protect Steve Yeagers bat shard impaled throat!

            .
            “So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change”
            Change can not happen when the biggest changer is blackballed out of contention!!!!!

            “But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted.”
            This is BS, it has proven to be effective by many at all levels, the problem is we have no bar to jump over, this sport is totally subjective, just hand us the ball please.
            We even have a Cy Young award with the top half mechanic.

            “So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria”
            So now that you have figured it out and by this will not (more importantly have not) proceed in practice or words, you have now just answered your own previous questions, same as most all others.

            It might behoove you and us to get back on subject if your going to get all this information wrong as others continually do.
            Last edited by Dirtberry; 02-11-2013, 11:43 PM.
            Primum non nocere

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by daque View Post
              The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love. Just like the knees and gnarled hands of a catcher. Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem. Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster. One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear. And MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League. So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change. But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted. So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria.
              Daque, respectfully disagree...
              I've sat with hundreds of professional coaches, attended spring training for ten years, watched dozens of baseball roundtables and I have to say that MUCH of what the professional world teaches is dogma. Try getting Mattingly and Lau in the same setting and see how much scientifically proven bio-mechanics are discussed. Professional baseball, like that young man who posted recently (Red head?), hang their hat on what works whether they understand it or not.

              I also coached basketball for 12 years... If you went to a basketball coaching clinic you would see a vast difference... Basketball coaches accept what is new and and ask why it works, baseball coaches want to impress you with their knowledge of the old ways.

              I've seen one of the best sports orthopedics (Dr. M. Joyce) in the country in, argue elbow damage with college and lower level professional coaches with the coaches leaving the room saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. After the session I tracked one of the pro coaches down and asked him what medical training does he have - none. "But you had some kenesiology training right?" -" No, you don't need it to know what works and what doesn't." And this is not an exception in the game - it's the rule. When in doubt the dogma wins.
              "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
              - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

              Comment


              • #97
                As you know, I've been researching and writing in this area for years. A couple of weeks ago, I did a presentation to 500 or so members of the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association...

                - Pitching Mechanics and Injury Prevention Presentation

                ...and came away with a couple of things that are relevant to this conversation.

                Most of the coaches I talked to had heard Marshall talk. Their feedback on his presentation wasn't good. The few guys who actually understood what he was talking about weren't convinced by his arguments because it was all theory. He couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't point to successful major leaguers who did what he was advocating.

                What was interesting was that the audience wasn't opposed to a discussion about injury prevention. My talk and ideas were very positively received. The difference was that I made my case using pictures, clips, and image sequences of major leaguers. That convinced them that what I was talking about wasn't that radical.

                What was curious was how few of them had really looked at any video of major leaguers. I blew people away with clips of stuff that are common knowledge on sites like this one.
                Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 02-12-2013, 08:20 AM.
                Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                  Daque, respectfully disagree...
                  I've sat with hundreds of professional coaches, attended spring training for ten years, watched dozens of baseball roundtables and I have to say that MUCH of what the professional world teaches is dogma. Try getting Mattingly and Lau in the same setting and see how much scientifically proven bio-mechanics are discussed. Professional baseball, like that young man who posted recently (Red head?), hang their hat on what works whether they understand it or not.

                  I also coached basketball for 12 years... If you went to a basketball coaching clinic you would see a vast difference... Basketball coaches accept what is new and and ask why it works, baseball coaches want to impress you with their knowledge of the old ways.

                  I've seen one of the best sports orthopedics (Dr. M. Joyce) in the country in, argue elbow damage with college and lower level professional coaches with the coaches leaving the room saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. After the session I tracked one of the pro coaches down and asked him what medical training does he have - none. "But you had some kenesiology training right?" -" No, you don't need it to know what works and what doesn't." And this is not an exception in the game - it's the rule. When in doubt the dogma wins.
                  This question isn't just for you, Jake, but what is different about baseball that makes coaches so resistant to new ways of doing things? We see the same thing with hitting instruction when slow motion video contradicts what top coaches are teaching. It seems in other sports there is more acceptance of new ideas, science, and technology.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
                    As you know, I've been researching and writing in this area for years. A couple of weeks ago, I did a presentation to 500 or so members of the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association...

                    - Pitching Mechanics and Injury Prevention Presentation

                    ...and came away with a couple of things that are relevant to this conversation.

                    Most of the coaches I talked to had heard Marshall talk. Their feedback on his presentation wasn't good. The few guys who actually understood what he was talking about weren't convinced by his arguments because it was all theory. He couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't point to successful major leaguers who did what he was advocating.

                    What was interesting was that the audience wasn't opposed to a discussion about injury prevention. My talk and ideas were very positively received. The difference was that I made my case using pictures, clips, and image sequences of major leaguers. That convinced them that what I was talking about wasn't that radical.

                    What was curious was how few of them had really looked at any video of major leaguers. I blew people away with clips of stuff that are common knowledge on sites like this one.
                    Marshall's biggest problem with his presentation is his lack of understanding of the physics involved in pitching.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by azmatsfan View Post
                      This question isn't just for you, Jake, but what is different about baseball that makes coaches so resistant to new ways of doing things?
                      I don't think this is universal.

                      The guy who was most enthusiastic about my presentation was a coach who was there to be inducted into the Illinois high school hall of fame.

                      Of course, perhaps the reason he was going into the hof was because he was constantly looking for good, new information.
                      Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 02-12-2013, 08:37 AM.
                      Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                      I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by azmatsfan View Post
                        Marshall's biggest problem with his presentation is his lack of understanding of the physics involved in pitching.
                        While his misuse of physics is problematic, it's really not the biggest issue.

                        To identify the problem with his use of physics, you first have to dig into his stuff and most of the guys I talked to had no interest in digging into his stuff because his presentation simply wasn't compelling. They couldn't understand much of what he said, and what they did understand they didn't buy because Marshall didn't back up his claims with examples of major leaguers who did what he was talking about.
                        Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 02-12-2013, 08:37 AM.
                        Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                        I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by daque View Post
                          …The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love. …
                          Therein lies the problem. If an 18YO wants to make the decision to do things to his body that will very likely cause physical and/or mental problems for the rest of his life, that’s one thing. But how many 9YO kids understand the health consequences of pitching? Combine a feeling of indestructibility with ignorance and low skill levels and you have exactly what we have now.

                          Now if you can figger out how to segregate those who will go on to play beyond the age of majority, that would be a different story.
                          The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by daque View Post
                            The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love.
                            I think there is some truth to this.

                            It's hard to draw the line or know whether you are dealing with damage or not.

                            I once discussed David Kopp, who has a reputation for being soft, with an ex major leaguer. He talked about Kopp having to learn how to push through the discomfort and pain. I think that was true of Kopp, whose arm was clean as far as I knew.

                            However, always pushing through pain isn't always a good idea and can be counter-productive.

                            But it's hard to know what is push-throughable and what isn't or shouldn't be pushed through.
                            Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                            I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                              Please provide a link to a study by a reputable independent group which backs up this claim.
                              My evidence was empirical meaning it was via my own observations. Mixed in, of course, was my own biases and opinions. I was a coach, not a scientist. The evidence in front of me was a deformed arm and observations of the kid's pitching technique which was dominated by the slurve with forced supination.

                              Others have also asked me to, "prove it" knowing that I could not. Designing a study for this situation is very difficult to impossible. Many of those asking for proof only wanted to justify their position of allowing and/or encouraging throwing the slurve. I am an advocate of forbidding the slurve until the elbow has matured. I give advice when asked but am not a zealot. I learned a long time ago that a player is going to listen to his father and that you cannot save a player from his family. By the way, the only way I know of to prove that a person has a brain while on the diamond is by empirical evidence. However, on the diamond, it is easy to prove early damage to the medial epicondyle. Some reversible. Fin.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post

                                For the first time one of our legendary JC coaches out here (SACC) is letting 3 of his pitchers train with iron balls and wrist weight daily while all the other pitchers shag balls for the batters as usual, one of them is now at 95 MPH. Things are gaining ground fast.
                                Dirt

                                Can't really remember if we've discussed this before, but do you see the weight training/conditioning that MM pitchers do as being as big a factor as the mechanics they are using?

                                Looking at traditional pitchers in the MLB that go down with TJ injuries, it seems they frequently come back stronger - and with less injuries. I've often though the biggest factor in that was the fact that they were now doing exercises designed to specifically strengthen the parts of their arms that are prone to injury.

                                Comment

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