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My study on bat drag

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  • Originally posted by Mark H View Post
    Guess you missed my follow up. Not my saying.
    it doesn't really matter.... let's just stay on topic....

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    • Originally posted by giantheart View Post
      it doesn't really matter.... let's just stay on topic....
      I think everyone is saying the same thing. It's just nuances.
      "I pity any student or young hitter you may have to teach."

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      • Originally posted by giantheart View Post
        it doesn't really matter.... let's just stay on topic....
        So is that a retraction of your comments on me?

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        • Originally posted by randhad View Post
          I think everyone is saying the same thing. It's just nuances.
          Could be some of that. Would be much easier to get to the heart of that standing together on a ball field talking and demonstrating movements and positions. Bet if we did that some of the people arguing the same side would look at each other and say "heck no that's not what I'm saying".
          Last edited by Mark H; 03-23-2015, 07:15 PM.

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          • fair enough...yes.. i retract all the bad things i said and was thinking about that i didn't write post...

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            • You're a good man. Thanks.

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              • Originally posted by giantheart View Post
                A vertical bat has to swivel around two pin joints to get to the correct horizontal plane....there is a smaller (is that better?) torque in the wrists that gets the bat started during that trajectory....
                Not following this. the bat typically remains ~90 degrees to the wrist of the front arm until the bat head begins to whip forward. Since the angle between the bat and the wrist/arm is not changing, how is there torque applied. If any were present, the net torque would be zero or else the angle would change. In fact I'd argue that the wrist is not a pin joint at this portion of the swing b/c the wrist/bat remains at a fixed angle.

                For example, take a string with a small weight at the end. Hold the string between your thumb and forefinger and begin to spin it horizontally. What happens? It easily moves into a circular path. Did you apply torque to the string perpendicular to the axis of rotation?

                I would agree that there are forces not accounted for in the model, but I don't see "wrist torque" as contributing to any power in the swing -perhaps adjustment to pitch speed/location, that's where many of those difficult to quantify components separates hitters, so you have a point, but not the acceleration of the bat head towards the ball. If anything, wouldn't additional (major) forces come from the arms/back attempting to further accelerate the bat (yes directed along the length of the bat) tangential to the rotation of the body. Here tangential to the rotation is key to avoid the knob to the ball syndrome.

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                • Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                  Ahh yes, but it is also those same very small things that separate the "OK" from "the best"....regardless of age, or level we're talking about.



                  At least to me, if viewed from overhead, the young lady's swing above would be an almost exact duplicate of the sim path in the video, and the forces recorded from it, at least as far as bat and barrel path go...but certainly not that of a quality or HL swing.
                  The major difference between a bat drag youth swing shown here and a more elite swing stems from the starting point of the bat rotation. In the bat drag scenario, the bat head is dropped on plane w/o any rotational movement towards the target. In the HL swing, the bat handle is "pulled" (though I don't like the term here) forward as the head drops so that there is considerable motion forward of the bat handle during this time. This also serves to maintain the hands/arms/bat handle near the axis of rotation vs. along the outside of the shoulder. That said, a bat drag swing does generate considerable power, it just takes longer to reach the same speed. A bat drag swing also requires further rotation to reach the POC b/c it does not rotate on the shortest pendulum (i.e. along the mid-line) but rather along the outside of the rear shoulder. So I'd agree that the model isn't the tell all, but certainly provides much insight into the forces necessary to generate bat speed.

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                  • Originally posted by bluedawg View Post
                    Not following this. the bat typically remains ~90 degrees to the wrist of the front arm until the bat head begins to whip forward. Since the angle between the bat and the wrist/arm is not changing, how is there torque applied. If any were present, the net torque would be zero or else the angle would change. In fact I'd argue that the wrist is not a pin joint at this portion of the swing b/c the wrist/bat remains at a fixed angle.

                    For example, take a string with a small weight at the end. Hold the string between your thumb and forefinger and begin to spin it horizontally. What happens? It easily moves into a circular path. Did you apply torque to the string perpendicular to the axis of rotation?

                    I would agree that there are forces not accounted for in the model, but I don't see "wrist torque" as contributing to any power in the swing -perhaps adjustment to pitch speed/location, that's where many of those difficult to quantify components separates hitters, so you have a point, but not the acceleration of the bat head towards the ball. If anything, wouldn't additional (major) forces come from the arms/back attempting to further accelerate the bat (yes directed along the length of the bat) tangential to the rotation of the body. Here tangential to the rotation is key to avoid the knob to the ball syndrome.
                    The 90 degree angle or hinge angle is to prevent radial and ulnar deviation...you can supinate and pronate your wrist while maintaining a hinge angle..

                    You don't muscle the ball with the wrists...it's not clear to me how much comes from wrists and how much comes from gravity acting on the bat head...but both forces are important when added to the hips

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                    • I gotta think gravity is next to zilch.

                      But, IMO, the value of the "torque" applied to the bat at swing initiation is not the energy from the torque itself, it is the beneficial effect on the timing of the "whip".

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                      • So the "torque" you speak of is setting up the timing and location of the whip?

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                        • Originally posted by Mark H View Post
                          So the "torque" you speak of is setting up the timing and location of the whip?

                          That's the way I see it.

                          Today, at least.

                          Hey, I was wrong about the wiffle bat. So I'm hesitant to be dogmatic about anything.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by giantheart View Post
                            The 90 degree angle or hinge angle is to prevent radial and ulnar deviation...you can supinate and pronate your wrist while maintaining a hinge angle..

                            You don't muscle the ball with the wrists...it's not clear to me how much comes from wrists and how much comes from gravity acting on the bat head...but both forces are important when added to the hips
                            There's a reason that Ted thought this about the hands and wrists....

                            https://youtu.be/EpMlVptg2Ls?t=1m37s

                            ....and didn't say anything about pulling the bat with the hands and/or arms.

                            Now it's up to all decide why one of the greatest hitters of all time would say, "Work at being quick with your hands, and wrists...because the quicker you become, the longer you can wait to judge the pitch, and the less you'll be fooled", and figure out when you think he meant in the swing process to be "quick" with them, if you buy into what he's saying

                            Just some food for thought wrt the discussion at hand....
                            Last edited by mudvnine; 03-23-2015, 09:26 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar
                            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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                            • I don't think so......

                              Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                              Ahh yes, but it is also those same very small things that separate the "OK" from "the best"....regardless of age, or level we're talking about.

                              A "bat drag" thread is a very good place to show that a completely "rotational" (or "circular") swing that the sim demonstrates, is not the model of the HL swing, regardless of what's said on the video.
                              I don't think so. Whether it's a young player dragging the bat or a high-level major-league player the simulation is the same i.e. the physics of the same once the bat get on plane.

                              Let's take for example the swing of a "reasonably" good major league player.



                              Slow motion of that player.



                              One of the problems that so many here have is they attribute far too much to what I would term "pre-swing" actions. By "pre-swing" I mean terminology such as "tipping the bat" for getting a "running start".

                              In the case of this player this is what I would call the "pre-swing" move which really does not contribute much of anything for the swing itself other than initiating an action that the players comfortable with.



                              At the end of the pre-swing the bat is now on plane and this is where my physics simulation begins.



                              And for those who still have a problem "you can only see what you're capable of seeing..."

                              Thank you JJA for doing the "heavy lifting" of trying to explain to some here the "unexplainable".

                              Enjoy !!
                              Last edited by justthefacts; 03-24-2015, 05:34 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
                                I don't think so. Whether it's a young player dragging the bat or a high-level major-league player the simulation is the same i.e. the physics of the same once the bat get on plane.

                                Let's take for example the swing of a "reasonably" good major league player.

                                Slow motion of that player.



                                One of the problems that so many here have is they attribute far too much to what I would term "pre-swing" actions. By "pre-swing" I mean terminology such as "tipping the bat" for getting a "running start".

                                In the case of this player this is what I would call the "pre-swing" move which really does not contribute much of anything for the swing itself other than initiating an action that the players comfortable with.
                                At the end of the pre-swing the bat is now on plane and this is where my physics simulation begins.

                                "you can only see what you're capable of seeing..."
                                The MLB is survival of the fittest. Why would anyone perform extraneous actions that only complicate the swing if they do not impart any mechanical advantage in creating kinetic and potential energy? Why aren't there any great MLB players that sit in the Epstein torque position and fire the swing? The swing does require a circular swing path and hand path, but the player must establish a radius of rotation.

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