Integrity of game-used cards?

[Silver Blaze]

I just saw a Ted Williams jersey card on eBay...with a piece of Yankees uniform in it. This hasn't done much to convince me that the process of putting these pieces into the cards is foolproof. In this case it's obvious the jersey is wrong, but what about the rest of the time? If it's just blank white, or grey, it might not even be the right team, let alone the right player. And what about bat cards? What kind of controls are in place at the factory when dealing with lots of tiny pieces of wood that all look pretty much the same?

I know at the end of the day we need to take it on face value, and trust that it is what it says it is. Nothing is 100% perfect, and I doubt there's any way to stop a company employee maliciously putting the wrong pieces into cards, just for a laugh.

This is a dilemma for me because I like to collect jersey and bat cards, but I need to feel reasonably sure that when I look at that piece of bat, it really is Roberto Clemente's, Derek Jeter's, Mario Mendoza's, etc. With jerseys, it's a bit easier to tell, not just by color, but if it's an old HOF player, then the piece of jersey looks old, but I guess it's still not foolproof.

Is there any kind of research or common wisdom about the number of errors that have been discovered, and how legitimate the majority of the cards are? My secret fear is one day we'll find out that anywhere up to 25% of the cards are wrong, and their value - already low for all but hot rookies and HOFers - plummets overnight.

[Dalkowski110]

" just saw a Ted Williams jersey card on eBay...with a piece of Yankees uniform in it."

I will bet you a large sum of money that that card was made by Donruss/Playoff/Leaf. One of the reasons the MLBPA had had enough with them was not actually outright fakery of GU cards, but they misplaced things at times. Wrong jersey on the wrong card. Wrong bat, sometimes even wrong autograph sticker (though I've only seen that three times...twice with the two Frank Thomases and once with the Ken Griffeys). Errors by Topps, Upper Deck, and even Fleer are extremely rare. On the other hand, Pacific outright faked stuff.

[Silver Blaze]

" just saw a Ted Williams jersey card on eBay...with a piece of Yankees uniform in it."

I will bet you a large sum of money that that card was made by Donruss/Playoff/Leaf. One of the reasons the MLBPA had had enough with them was not actually outright fakery of GU cards, but they misplaced things at times. Wrong jersey on the wrong card. Wrong bat, sometimes even wrong autograph sticker (though I've only seen that three times...twice with the two Frank Thomases and once with the Ken Griffeys). Errors by Topps, Upper Deck, and even Fleer are extremely rare. On the other hand, Pacific outright faked stuff.

Thanks for the info. I think I have some Pacific game-used bats....Jay Payton and Andruw Jones, Ray Durham. Not the pride of my collection, but I like them.

[hudsonharden]

On the other hand, Pacific outright faked stuff.

Do you have any more info on this? I'd like to know what kind of things were faked.

[duckydps]

I have often wondered this too. First of all, how in the world could they cut up Ted Williams' jersey??? Or a player of his caliber from that era?? I believe i have even seen GU Ruth Stuff... I just don't get it, so it really makes me wonder!!

[Dalkowski110]

"Do you have any more info on this? I'd like to know what kind of things were faked."

Bats and jerseys. It leaked out when they put a piece of a bat that had been corked on a Manny Ramirez card and Manny was outraged. The MLBPA demanded to know what was up and Pacific admitted they were extremely lax about putting the correct bats and jerseys on the correct cards. They insisted the things they put on the cards were in fact game-used, BUT they couldn't trace them to an individual player (and I do believe this).

" First of all, how in the world could they cut up Ted Williams' jersey??? Or a player of his caliber from that era?? "

I've said this before and I'll say it again...often, the stuff from that era that got chopped was in terrible condition. Heck, I have a Brooks Robinson jersey card with a rip in the swatch. And I've seen the conditions of the jerseys that got chopped. For the most part (though not early on), they were in bad shape. However, even this caused a certain degree of outrage in the hobby (the card that did it was likely the Upper Deck Joe Jackson bat card, which was an outlaw league bat that while broken in two, was incredibly rare). So ever since about 2003-2004, all companies except Donruss/Playoff LP have for the most part cut up worn out pairs of pants regarding players of that era OR have just been using up the jerseys/bats they've already purchased.

[EricDavis]

There have been a lot of cases on eBay where people sell completely fake GU cards that were never produced. Maybe it's one of those.

[duckydps]

" First of all, how in the world could they cut up Ted Williams' jersey??? Or a player of his caliber from that era?? "

I've said this before and I'll say it again...often, the stuff from that era that got chopped was in terrible condition. Heck, I have a Brooks Robinson jersey card with a rip in the swatch. And I've seen the conditions of the jerseys that got chopped. For the most part (though not early on), they were in bad shape. However, even this caused a certain degree of outrage in the hobby (the card that did it was likely the Upper Deck Joe Jackson bat card, which was an outlaw league bat that while broken in two, was incredibly rare). So ever since about 2003-2004, all companies except Donruss/Playoff LP have for the most part cut up worn out pairs of pants regarding players of that era OR have just been using up the jerseys/bats they've already purchased.

Cool, thanks for the info... you always got the good info... THANKS!!!

[Dalkowski110]

Thank you for the compliment! While I am no longer employed at a card shop (health reasons), I do still have the connections at said card shop that I can get this info and provide it to you guys!

[Dalkowski110]

"There have been a lot of cases on eBay where people sell completely fake GU cards that were never produced. Maybe it's one of those."

A lot? I've only heard of faked "custom" GU cards a handful of times. Although one involving a "Babe Ruth bat" that was initially sold as a novelty and then someone sold it as real caused a huge stir.

[steve rogers]

Let me first say that I don't like the whole game used card thing. I don't like any inserts for that matter. And let me add that I HATE vintage game used cards. Ok, now that my little disclaimer is out of the way.

The first thing about game used cards is that there is no way this stuff can ever be certified. None, zero, zilch, nada. Mr Dalkowski already mentioned several examples of card companies making "mistakes" and out right fraudulent memorabilia cards. Silver Blaze I hate to say this but I think you might be right about the industry one day finding out a whole bunch of game used cards are out right fakes.

First you have to believe that the jersey or bat the card company bought was real in the first place. Remember that Ruth/Cobb/Wagner/ Walter Johnson cut autograph card? The one put out by Upper Deck. Well several authentication companies (GAI, PSA/DNA, and UACC) said the Ruth and Johnson auto's were fake. Upper deck would hear nothing of it. If you look around online and read a few books like "The Card" and "Operation Bullpen" you'll be shocked to learn what the people running the memorabilia industry do. One of the biggest jersey authentication companies in the world for instance certifies their own stuff and then they sell it at auction. That is the very definition of a conflict of interest. You know that Mantle glove Billy Crystal bought for $250 K thinking it was a 1960 glove? It was a 1965 glove worth less than half what he paid. Or a Dimaggio glove that was sold as game used in a major auction house, well that glove was made 4 years after Dimaggio retired. The industry is plagued with examples like that.

The card companies aren't going out and buying the stuff that is unquestionably authentic. They're looking for bargains. They don't buy the side written Joe Jackson bat from the Loiusville Slugger auction that is graded A10 and is irreproachably real. They buy the Jackson bat graded A4. A bat where there's a good chance it's real but also a good chance it isn't real. I'm sure most, and by that I mean over 50%, of the stuff used for vintage cards is real, but I would bet at least 10-20% of it isn't.

Just as a side note because I can't really substantiate any of this other than to say the person that told me this story has been a card dealer for over 40 years and is easily the person I respect the most when it comes to cards and collectibles. The story he told me was that a worker at Upper Deck told him that they really did cut up a real bat for a high level hall of famer and put pieces of it in cards, but they also added pieces of a bat that was just an old bat from the same time period. Something you'd find at a tag sale. You can take or leave that story, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

I think the entire practice of game used cards should be banned. A Ted Williams bat is a piece of history and should be preserved for future generations. Even if it's in "terrible condition". Cutting it up into 1000 pieces does not make 1000 little pieces of history. The history is destroyed when the bat is cut up. One thing I can guarantee about vintage memorabilia cards is that in 20, 50, 100 years all collectors will look back at the practice with incredulity and anger. There's a lot of us that look at it that way now.

Scott

[Dalkowski110]

"You can take or leave that story, but it wouldn't surprise me at all."

I'm fairly certain that one's an urban legend, though I do NOT doubt your friend's truthfulness on the matter. Here's why...because I've heard the same story myself with maybe five or six variations regarding the same card. Same scenario...card company buys a bat of a big name from the 1930's-1950's, then finds it has some extras and just uses a random period bat. HOWEVER, it's not a bunch of cards, but rather one card of one big name guy. Here are the constants:
1.) The player featured on the card is ALWAYS of a high level Hall of Famer who played his prime in the 1930's or 1940's, without exception. However, a majority of the time it's Ted Williams or Joe DiMaggio.
2.) The manufacturer of the card varies, generally depending on the dealer's sympathies. As an example, my former boss (when he believed this story) claimed that Fleer had produced the card. He has close ties to Upper Deck. Another dealer friend of mine with ties to Topps claimed the card had been printed by Upper Deck. Two more claimed it was Donruss. One even said Topps.
3.) The card is oddly enough never a jersey card. It's always a bat card.
4.) The card was printed anywhere from 2001-2004.
5.) The MLBPA threatened to boot the company out of the hobby if they ever tried it again, but let the existing card slide.

However, like all urban legends, there is likely a grain of truth in it. Donruss would sometimes fill quotas circa 2002-2003 with items that were of uncertain origin, though this was only revealed by the MLBPA in 2005. Hobby insiders knew Donruss wasn't very good, but they never quite knew that they were THAT bad. This would likely explain the complete uncertainty of just who made the card. It being Ted Williams or Joe DiMaggio, however, is probably a fabrication that was tacked on to attack more reputable companies like Topps and Upper Deck. Donruss applied this policy to ALL retired players. They were generally better with jerseys than bats, however, so that's probably how that got started.

"Remember that Ruth/Cobb/Wagner/ Walter Johnson cut autograph card? The one put out by Upper Deck. Well several authentication companies (GAI, PSA/DNA, and UACC) said the Ruth and Johnson auto's were fake. Upper deck would hear nothing of it."

I remember the card...it was from 2005. That had to be UD's worst year in general. What they did when they put that card out was totally inexcusable...though they got all four signatures directly from the Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, and Johnson estates, Ruth's signature was almost certainly signed BY HIS WIFE. The Johnson auto was also ghosted by someone. While yes, UD wanted to hear nothing of it, that had more to do with their standing with the MLBPA in 2005 than public image. That may seem a bit odd, but the only card company guaranteed to survive 2005 before the MLBPA stepped in and cleaned up the hobby (though also destroyed rookie cards in the process, though I won't sidetrack myself) was Topps. Upper Deck came close to losing their license over that (as well as a run of Don Zimmer signed cards that his wife signed), and they've since run a far tighter ship (indeed, ever since mid 2006, my former boss switched to supporting them over Topps).

"The card companies aren't going out and buying the stuff that is unquestionably authentic. They're looking for bargains."

Not quite. If they were looking for stuff that was merely a bargain, they wouldn't be buying shredded jerseys, ripped pants, and broken up bats that in some cases were literally rotting (I know for a fact a rotten Johnny Mize bat actually made its way onto some Upper Deck cards...you can tell if you've pulled a card made from this bat because the wood has a sort of a plastic feel to it...that'd be UD spraying on a lacquer to stop the rot). Also, don't forget that a single bat, pair of pants, or jersey can be made into literally over 1,000 cards. In some cases, that can even last multiple years. If you've ever compared a bat card from, say, 1999 to one printed in 2008, you'll find the wood is MUCH thinner on the current card. With the exception of Donruss (and even they've shaped up after they almost got their precious football license yanked), you never really had a company with a cavalier attitude toward even vintage memorabilia. I can't speak to the memorabilia companies (though I can speak to autograph authenticators and dealers), but I would say that 95% of all non-Donruss cards have it right.

"I think the entire practice of game used cards should be banned. A Ted Williams bat is a piece of history and should be preserved for future generations. Even if it's in "terrible condition". Cutting it up into 1000 pieces does not make 1000 little pieces of history. The history is destroyed when the bat is cut up. One thing I can guarantee about vintage memorabilia cards is that in 20, 50, 100 years all collectors will look back at the practice with incredulity and anger. There's a lot of us that look at it that way now."

I understand how you feel; however, this argument has its own thread. If we're to argue (and I do hold a diametrically opposing view), can we do it in that thread and not this one?

[steve rogers]

[QUOTE=Dalkowski110;1150945
"The card companies aren't going out and buying the stuff that is unquestionably authentic. They're looking for bargains."

Not quite. If they were looking for stuff that was merely a bargain, they wouldn't be buying shredded jerseys, ripped pants, and broken up bats that in some cases were literally rotting[/QUOTE]

I think what you added here supports what I said. Shredded jerseys and broken bats are bargains. They're much much cheaper than complete jerseys and uncracked bats.

Scott

[Dalkowski110]

Sorry, that didn't come off well.

What I meant to say was that the card companies still wind up having to pay for authentification costs of said damaged goods. Basically that while they skimp on the item cost itself, they don't do so on the authentification. It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. They can still claim whatever they put on the cards is authentic and used by the player on the card and avoid the MLBPA coming down on them like a sledgehammer if an item is fake, but still manage to save money.

[steve rogers]

Sorry, that didn't come off well.

What I meant to say was that the card companies still wind up having to pay for authentification costs of said damaged goods. Basically that while they skimp on the item cost itself, they don't do so on the authentification. It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. They can still claim whatever they put on the cards is authentic and used by the player on the card and avoid the MLBPA coming down on them like a sledgehammer if an item is fake, but still manage to save money.

The issue of authentication is something that I mentioned in a previous post here. The people running these authentication companies are often the same people selling the items they authenticated. That is a major conflict of interest. And the cost of authenticating a jersey is minimal. A $20,000 jersey costs a few hundred dollars to authenticate.

If selling legitimate items was the #1 priority of card companies they would be buying the highest graded examples. But they're not. They're buying the cheapest examples. Their #1 priority is making money, as it should be. And as you've said the card companies have made numerous errors when it comes to memorabilia, and those are just the ones that we know about. The instance of the Ruth/Cobb/Wagner/Johnson signed card is a perfect example. Why didn't Upper Deck get the autographs authenticated? That's inexcusable. And saying that the industry has cleaned up their act in the last few years does not give me a sense of security. The first 10 years of game used cards had no regulations or over sight and from what you've said about Donruss and Pacific a good percentage of those companies GU cards are fraudulent.

Do they have an independant third party witnessing the operation? I think that would help greatly

I can't speak to the memorabilia companies (though I can speak to autograph authenticators and dealers), but I would say that 95% of all non-Donruss cards have it right.

So by your estimate 1 in 20 of these cards is a fake. I know that's just a guess but those odds are extremely poor.


Scott