The Bitter Rivals Thread

[KenFougere]

[B][SIZE=8][COLOR=red][I]T R O T [/I] Off Homerun ![/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

[YankeeMan]

BoSox wait to take the lead in extra innings...

I think that's the Red Sox best option. That way the bullpen can't blow the lead.

[KenFougere]

Re: BoSox wait to take the lead in extra innings...

Originally posted by YankeeMan
I think that's the Red Sox best option. That way the bullpen can't blow the lead.

Well, I'll say this much...
Never, this entire season, did I see a pitcher come out of our bullpen and dominate the way that Timlin did
for three innings tonight. I was shocked.

[bigtime39]

Originally posted by Mattingly

While I can understand your strong dislike of the Yankees because of Baltimore's standings the past 6 seasons against them, I strongly believe that equal standards should be applied to all teams, regardless of how you feel about them.

I will strongly agree with you that it's not about who's got the most cash. However, I do believe that teams do need to win the games. Since Peter Angelos is supposedly making efforts to acquired Tejada and Vlad, and rumors have even Mike Piazza going to Baltimore, I think he wants to get into the spending ways also.

My strong dislike of the Yankees goes back to being a SENATORS fan...first in war, etc...The Orioles standings vs New York over the past six seasons have had to do with both the O's inability to get their act together (hopefully in the process of being solved) and the Yankees managing their huge (and growing) wealth disparity. I don't believe equal standards can be applied to any of MLBs teams until they stop LYING about their revenues and expenses (and they all do it, even the small market teams), and start fully, and fairly, sharing their revenues. I'm sure that many Orioles fans would take the current system, if it favored the Birds...BUT it would STILL be wrong.
Peter Angelos, finally out from under the Belle, Erickson and Conine contracts (man, Jeff C is disrepected by inclusion in THAT trio) is willing to increase the teams payroll to $75 million for 2004. Given what Steinbrenner is going to spend to buy Ponson and Millwood, Vlad G and Tejada (just you watch!), and keep Pettite...that should put the Orioles only about $125 million behind next years probable Yankee payroll! Flanagan and Beattie had better spend wisely!

[bigtime39]

Re: Re: BoSox wait to take the lead in extra innings...

Originally posted by KenFougere
Well, I'll say this much...
Never, this entire season, did I see a pitcher come out of our bullpen and dominate the way that Timlin did
for three innings tonight. I was shocked.

In all the time he was in Baltimore, I NEVER saw Timlin pitch like he did last night! Is there something in the water up there?

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by bigtime39
My strong dislike of the Yankees goes back to being a SENATORS fan...first in war, etc...The Orioles standings vs New York over the past six seasons have had to do with both the O's inability to get their act together (hopefully in the process of being solved) and the Yankees managing their huge (and growing) wealth disparity. I don't believe equal standards can be applied to any of MLBs teams until they stop LYING about their revenues and expenses (and they all do it, even the small market teams), and start fully, and fairly, sharing their revenues. I'm sure that many Orioles fans would take the current system, if it favored the Birds...BUT it would STILL be wrong.

Peter Angelos, finally out from under the Belle, Erickson and Conine contracts (man, Jeff C is disrepected by inclusion in THAT trio) is willing to increase the teams payroll to $75 million for 2004. Given what Steinbrenner is going to spend to buy Ponson and Millwood, Vlad G and Tejada (just you watch!), and keep Pettite...that should put the Orioles only about $125 million behind next years probable Yankee payroll! Flanagan and Beattie had better spend wisely!

I'm curious, has anyone ever told you that reading orange + bold text is somewhat difficult to read? That's why I removed the color from your text in my reply. While I realize that's your team's color, I don't see Ken posting in all red, nor any Yankee fan posting in all blue. What if the A's fans posted in yellow + green?

As to the Senators, which ones? The ones which became the Texas Rangers, or the ones which became the Twins? If the Twins, is that because they happen to be playing the Yanks? If so, would you have had the same feelings had any other team played them in the ALDS?

As to Baltimore's inability to get it together, I suggest you look towards Peter Angelos. It's not George's fault that Angelos can't get his team together. As to equal standards, is that some excuse that your team shouldn't be judged on the same ground? The Yanks beat Baltimore 4 times w/o YES, so why does it change now?

I suggest you look back to last season when the revenue sharing *was* implemented. Only 1 team voted against it, and w/o that revenue sharing, there'd have been a strike. There *is* revenue sharing already. Had Angelos been digging deeper into his pockets, you'd have noticed it, but when it's coming from Steinbrenner, that's something different, right? Besides, I don't think that Baltimore is such a "small" area, what with DC, Virginia and Virginia being so nearby.

For George somehow getting "Ponson and Millwood, Vlad G and Tejada (just you watch!), and keep Pettite", is Ponson an FA? Millwood, perhaps, as I've heard rumors that Colon's going to be re-signed by the ChiSox. However, Vlad would be ahighly expensive possibility. Some would prefer Sheffield, as he'd likely command 2/3 the price ($10m vs $15m).

For Tejada, I have no idea where that comes from. I've heard of Baltimore being interested in Tejada, since he wants to increase payroll. If anything, which team has ever needed to stars at SS? We've got Aaron Boone at 3B, we've got Jeter at SS. Why would we need Tejada? Where would he play?

For Pettitte, I think he'd make in the $9m range if re-signed, so please remove the $25-30m from the Yankee payroll from the Vlad & Tejada signings. I'd think that Angelos would likely go after both of them the same way Tom Hicks went after A-Rod. Not George's fault.

For next year's "probable Yankee payroll", I suggest that when you do accounting, you not only add players who actually *are* signed, but subtract those who are no longer there. Rondell White, Raul Mondesi and Sterling Hitchcock are all gone, and next season, Roger Clemens will also be gone. If you think that amounts to $200m or more in 2004, and $250m in 2005, then I'm sure that Peter Gammons is your best friend! Don't believe the hype is all I'll say!

[Sandman]

Wow. I think the Sox have passed the curse on to the A's.

[KenFougere]

David Ortiz - M V P !

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by KenFougere

David Ortiz - M V P !

Since when do they award MVPs for the ALDS? Oh well, no WS victory for you guys!

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by Sandman
Wow. I think the Sox have passed the curse on to the A's.

We'll see about that on Monday. I figure both teams will be bushed from travelling almost 3,000 miles.

[KenFougere]

Originally posted by Mattingly
Since when do they award MVPs for the ALDS? Oh well, no WS victory for you guys!

No kiddin', Really?

I, of course, am referring to the AL 2003 MVP. No one came through more in the clutch all season than David Ortiz for the Red Sox.

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by KenFougere
No kiddin', Really?

I, of course, am referring to the AL 2003 MVP. No one came through more in the clutch all season than David Ortiz for the Red Sox.

Oh, that? Yeah, he's carried you guys, all right. Another instance where your opponent fails by not walking Ortiz. He's too dangerous.

Anyway, here's to A-Rod getting the MVP. I think that the bat title should be enough for you guys. Hold the bubbly until next year (86th anniversary).

Oh yeah, empty out your mailbox.

[bigtime39]

Originally posted by Mattingly
I'm curious, has anyone ever told you that reading orange + bold text is somewhat difficult to read? That's why I removed the color from your text in my reply. While I realize that's your team's color, I don't see Ken posting in all red, nor any Yankee fan posting in all blue. What if the A's fans posted in yellow + green?

As to the Senators, which ones? The ones which became the Texas Rangers, or the ones which became the Twins? If the Twins, is that because they happen to be playing the Yanks? If so, would you have had the same feelings had any other team played them in the ALDS?

As to Baltimore's inability to get it together, I suggest you look towards Peter Angelos. It's not George's fault that Angelos can't get his team together. As to equal standards, is that some excuse that your team shouldn't be judged on the same ground? The Yanks beat Baltimore 4 times w/o YES, so why does it change now?

I suggest you look back to last season when the revenue sharing *was* implemented. Only 1 team voted against it, and w/o that revenue sharing, there'd have been a strike. There *is* revenue sharing already. Had Angelos been digging deeper into his pockets, you'd have noticed it, but when it's coming from Steinbrenner, that's something different, right? Besides, I don't think that Baltimore is such a "small" area, what with DC, Virginia and Virginia being so nearby.

For George somehow getting "Ponson and Millwood, Vlad G and Tejada (just you watch!), and keep Pettite", is Ponson an FA? Millwood, perhaps, as I've heard rumors that Colon's going to be re-signed by the ChiSox. However, Vlad would be ahighly expensive possibility. Some would prefer Sheffield, as he'd likely command 2/3 the price ($10m vs $15m).

For Tejada, I have no idea where that comes from. I've heard of Baltimore being interested in Tejada, since he wants to increase payroll. If anything, which team has ever needed to stars at SS? We've got Aaron Boone at 3B, we've got Jeter at SS. Why would we need Tejada? Where would he play?

For Pettitte, I think he'd make in the $9m range if re-signed, so please remove the $25-30m from the Yankee payroll from the Vlad & Tejada signings. I'd think that Angelos would likely go after both of them the same way Tom Hicks went after A-Rod. Not George's fault.

For next year's "probable Yankee payroll", I suggest that when you do accounting, you not only add players who actually *are* signed, but subtract those who are no longer there. Rondell White, Raul Mondesi and Sterling Hitchcock are all gone, and next season, Roger Clemens will also be gone. If you think that amounts to $200m or more in 2004, and $250m in 2005, then I'm sure that Peter Gammons is your best friend! Don't believe the hype is all I'll say!

1. No. Seems to work better on the white boxes than the gray ones, though.
2. Senators 2, the ones that went south, although my wife's family lives in MN.
3. Yes, no, YES makes the gap substantially wider.
4. Until every team throws EVERY dollar into the pot and pulls 1/30th out, just like the NFL, you DON'T have true revenue sharing. Given that EVERY MLB owner lies about their revenues, and that they are not equally shared, I give myself permission to bang this drum until it breaks. The amount Steinbrenner had to pay in this year amounts to little more than pocket change in Yankeeland.
5. I'd rate Ponson (26) and Millwood (28) as the best FA pitchers in the coming market. There are exceptions to the rule (see R. Clemens, for one) but FA pitchers over 30 scare the crap out of me.
6. If the Yankees don't win the WS, Steinbrenner is going to buy every top FA still breathing and figure out what to do with them later.
7. Flanagan and Beattie proved this year (and the Marlins are one thankful team for it) that they WILL NOT overpay for FAs because they CAN NOT. Unlike...
8. Next years "probable Yankee payroll" was to an extent, tongue in cheek...but you and I both know that they are the only team in MLB that COULD have a payroll that large, and not even break a sweat. And I still think it's anti-competitive, and wrong.

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by bigtime39
1. No. Seems to work better on the white boxes than the gray ones, though.
2. Senators 2, the ones that went south, although my wife's family lives in MN.
3. Yes, no, YES makes the gap substantially wider.
4. Until every team throws EVERY dollar into the pot and pulls 1/30th out, just like the NFL, you DON'T have true revenue sharing. Given that EVERY MLB owner lies about their revenues, and that they are not equally shared, I give myself permission to bang this drum until it breaks. The amount Steinbrenner had to pay in this year amounts to little more than pocket change in Yankeeland.
5. I'd rate Ponson (26) and Millwood (28) as the best FA pitchers in the coming market. There are exceptions to the rule (see R. Clemens, for one) but FA pitchers over 30 scare the crap out of me.
6. If the Yankees don't win the WS, Steinbrenner is going to buy every top FA still breathing and figure out what to do with them later.
7. Flanagan and Beattie proved this year (and the Marlins are one thankful team for it) that they WILL NOT overpay for FAs because they CAN NOT. Unlike...
8. Next years "probable Yankee payroll" was to an extent, tongue in cheek...but you and I both know that they are the only team in MLB that COULD have a payroll that large, and not even break a sweat. And I still think it's anti-competitive, and wrong.

I never actually "numbered" my prior paragraphs, but I'll respond to your numbers in like fashion:

1. First off, I thank you for not posting in deep orange text, as I'd found it distracting. I thought that a bright color like bold orange worked better against a darker (gray) background than the white ones. How can you see a light, bright color against a white background?

2. What do the Senators that became the Twins have to do with the Yanks? Had some other team played them, would you have held anything against them also?

3. Did you read where I'd mentioned that the Cubs have WGN? Do they get critique also, or only the Yankees? If other teams had deals similar to the Yanks' YES Network, would you be against them also?

4. If every team pulled out 1/30th of the profit, then I'd have to ask why some aren't putting in 1/30th the profit. It's seeming more and more like teams putting the least into the pot want the most. Since the Yanks signed Hideki Matsui, who plays a very nice LF, drives in a few runs, why can't they profit by sales of tshirts to a large Asian audience? I think other teams should use their own marketing expertise to improve sales and stop bashing George for being a good businessman.

The purpose of a baseball team is to win games, right? Well, George wants to win games, even if he's over the top about his insistence about doing so in consecutive seasons. The purpose of a business is to make money and lots of it, right? The Yankees make money, so IMO, instead of complaining that George does both, why not look at his philosophy and methods? Unless some of these other teams only wish to make as much as possible w/o actually investing back into the team to create a better overall product.

5. Until Bartolo Colon is actually signed by the ChiSox or someone else, I'll put him in as an FA. I'd also rate Ponson and Millwood as highly.

6. I presume you're joking on this. George has an unusual amount of heavyhanded behavior, as seen the past 30 years. However, if using logic, given that Rondell White, Raul Mondesi and Sterling Hitchcock are gone, I don't see any more $15m players in abundance. A-Rod wasn't given a $252m, 10 yr contract by Brian Cashman, nor was Chan Ho Park given a $65m, 5 yr contract. Those were Tom Hicks' decisions. Two seasons running, the Yanks haven't either won a WS, nor have bought every single big name FA available. If anything, it's been the Phillies who were shopping for big names last winter (Thome and Millwood), and this season, it seems that Angelo would be the one doing the shopping. Please give credit where due, not where you "imagine" it's due.

7. Some teams won't overpay because they either can't or won't. I don't expect many more "Sterling Hitchcock" deals again, paying 50% more than a pitcher's market price. If anything, I believe that the Yanks paid heavily to have those players now, so that they won't pay more dearly trying to get them next season, or trying to empty the farm via trade.

Right now, I see the Yanks shopping for a new RF, a #2 starter (even if Pettitte is kept), and some guys in the pen. Vlad is a possibility, since he'd been inquired about right before the 7/31 deadline, but no way Tejada. Who signs a star SS to play 3B?

8. Yes, we both know it, but some people's "tongue [firmly] in cheek" is another's "half joking" comment. No way George wants the daily comments from Gammons, Lupica (NY Daily News), Sherman (NY Post) and others. I still see the NYY payroll as being higher than others, but not so utterly ridiculous as to be insanely unfair. Yes, it'll be much larger than TB's, which pays all of their pitchers minimum wage, and whose only million dollar players were picked up when others paid their fare, or were kicked to the curb (released) by other teams. If anything, A-Rod's salary is more than that entire team's.

Still, if George could find bargains similar to Epstein's Mueller and Ortiz, why would he refuse? Would George likely pay more than other teams? Probably, but I'm unsure it would be some crazy bidding war. Even with Jason Giambi, the highest priced FA in Yankee history ($120m over 7 yrs), the Yanks cut off the bidding when Oakland, the only other serious bidder, refused to up the ante. I believe this set the tone that while they'd pay top dollar for a top player, the sky's not the limit anymore.

[KenFougere]

Re: Re: Re: BoSox wait to take the lead in extra innings...

Originally posted by bigtime39
In all the time he was in Baltimore, I NEVER saw Timlin pitch like he did last night!
Is there something in the water up there?

V i a g r a .