The Bitter Rivals Thread

[BC498]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by johncap
Let's face it, 30 games on cable every week, with the xposure the Yankees get and their success, and overbearance on the baseball world creates "fans" out of young, naive sports fans who have no understanding of what the word "fan" means.

Of course this is true. I think what Mattingly is upset about is that (correct me if I'm wrong) he feels that you are categorizing all Yankees fans as bandwagon fans. The Yankees do have the largest group of bandwagon "fans". True Yankee fans however are as devout and loyal as any other.

I cannot excuse the sorry late 60s or the 80s. I know I was there. I know many people who still followed the team intently whether or not they attended games. Sadly, I would say its about a 60/40 split at Yankees stadium these days. But when there are 55,000 on a cold, Tuesday night against the Tigers when A-Rod is taking a day off and Lieber is pitching; I can't dispute the devotion of true Yankee fans.

Originally posted by johncap
Clearly, a "Yankee fan" in Anaheim, unless a NY area transplant, is a fair weather fan.

Generally speaking, yes. There are exceptions to every rule however.

[KenFougere]

Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by Mattingly
Yanks, 110-52. Boston, 99-63 (just like 1978).

Not with your pitching . . .



With the improvements in Baltimore, Toronto, and the American League in general, 97 wins should be enough for the Sox to take the East.

[ElHalo]

Regular Season:
Red Sox: 104-58
Yankees: 102-60

ALCS:
Red Sox: 3-4
Yankees 4-3


Red Sox win the regular season, because Arroyo/Kim > Lieber.

Yankees win ALCS because Vasquez/Contreras > Lowe/Wakefield.

And as far as our pitching being unhealthy and old... tell me, who had more IP last year, Brown or Shilling?

[johncap]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by BC498
Of course this is true. I think what Mattingly is upset about is that (correct me if I'm wrong) he feels that you are categorizing all Yankees fans as bandwagon fans. The Yankees do have the largest group of bandwagon "fans". True Yankee fans however are as devout and loyal as any other.

Of course I didn't say all Yankee fans are bandwagon jumpers. But let's face it, the way modern sports are, our kids patronize the dregs of society in many cases because they can hit a ball or slam a ball through a hoop, without regard for the person itself, they cheer for the team that wins regardless of the color of the uniform. We grew up rooting for OUR team, that's the natural law of sport, of fandom, not picking a team for ANY other reason. As far as I'm concerned it's against creation to just choose a team that you have no inherent rooting interest in. At least not as your primary team. Growing up I recall three kids who rooted for out of town teams, and all three were transplants who grew up in the cities of the teams the rooted for. The Yankees, by virtue of winning 26 word championships, are the biggest and worst example of what I call Cowboy-itis, but that doesn't indict New Yorkers, Conecticut natives or north Jersey dwellers for being Yankee fans, just people in Minnesota, LA, Phoenix or any other place nowhere near New York and with a logical team to rightly cheer for!

Originally posted by BC498
Generally speaking, yes. There are exceptions to every rule however.

Not in my book of fans! A kid growing up in LA roots for the Dodgers or Angels or he knits scarves!

[johncap]

Originally posted by ElHalo
Regular Season:
Red Sox: 104-58
Yankees: 102-60

Sorry, and I know this won't sadden you, but Mulligan Man won't win 104 games over the next TWO years! This is Rich Kotite in red and blue, we're talking about here.

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by johncap
Of course I didn't say all Yankee fans are bandwagon jumpers. But let's face it, the way modern sports are, our kids patronize the dregs of society in many cases because they can hit a ball or slam a ball through a hoop, without regard for the person itself, they cheer for the team that wins regardless of the color of the uniform. We grew up rooting for OUR team, that's the natural law of sport, of fandom, not picking a team for ANY other reason. As far as I'm concerned it's against creation to just choose a team that you have no inherent rooting interest in. At least not as your primary team. Growing up I recall three kids who rooted for out of town teams, and all three were transplants who grew up in the cities of the teams the rooted for. The Yankees, by virtue of winning 26 word championships, are the biggest and worst example of what I call Cowboy-itis, but that doesn't indict New Yorkers, Conecticut natives or north Jersey dwellers for being Yankee fans, just people in Minnesota, LA, Phoenix or any other place nowhere near New York and with a logical team to rightly cheer for!


Not in my book of fans! A kid growing up in LA roots for the Dodgers or Angels or he knits scarves!

I actually don't think it's good advice to question someone's "fandom", meaning how much of a fan, or how true of a fan they really are. If you do, it's almost like becoming elitist, as if you're more of a fan than the next person.

As to rooting for the Yankees, which seems to be a topic you frequently discuss, I've never known why people do this, since I've never asked. I've known people in California whose parents grew up in NYC, and they'd liked the Yankees. I've never asked people if they'd just gone to school on the west coast, or were relocated on their jobs. Still, I'm not sure it should matter, to myself at least.

If you're true to your team, check out the ST games, root them on even when they're behind by 10 runs going into the 8th, check out opposing players' ERA and BA against your guys, have have mementos in your home of the team, wear the uni, go to games, root hard for them always, then who's to say that's not a fan? You?

I've known a few Yankee fans who were picked up after we'd acquired Mussina and then Giambi. Who's to say that person's true or not?

I can understand how you'd feel that a fan should be team-first, and support only the local team, but considering we've got fans in Boston, Queens, Arizona, San Francisco, Cleveland, Baltimore, I'd say that the national reach is pretty far. Welsh Yankee, where baseball isn't even likely anywhere near soccer's popularity, would confirm our international populaity.

Even if you doubt someone's being correct or not for their reasons in picking a team, even if it's the Yanks, I think that if you have a simple conversation about baseball with that person, it may be interesting. Your call.

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Seeing as how there is only one WC Mattingly, neither Oakland or Anaheim will be in the playoffs. Or are you forgetting about a little thing called SODO MOJO?

Well, whichever one of you people out west get to Boston first, make sure ya whups em good!

Make sure that SODO MOJO is on the field, not just in the ads and stuff. If not, I'll have to lend you guys my sizeable easy-opening *CAN*!

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by johncap
Revisionist history, Yankee style. Go back and look at Yankee Stadium attendance figures during the Roy White years, during years before George learned a little bit to letting the manager manage and spend more time in Tampa. If the Yankees had a 65 win season anythime soon, the rats, both internal and on the worldwide bandwagon would disappear faster than the so-called "lifelong" Cowboys fans from Passaic. Let's face it, 30 games on cable every week, wit hthe xposure the Yankees get and their success, and overbearance on the baseball world creates "fans" out of young, naive sports fans who have no understanding of what the word "fan" means. Clearly, a "Yankee fan" in Anaheim, unless a NY area transplant, is a fair weather fan. We're very pleased in Philly that the Eagles are one of the top three draws and clothing sale teams in the NFL throught the US, but it's a lot of fair weather fans drawn to a very successful high profile team getting a lot of exposure. We lose next year like the last three years, or go 7-9 and it'll all go away.

If I'm such a revisionist, then would you mind telling me which facts I've revised or distorted? Please state your case. Before doing so, I'm sure you know the difference between revising a fact, and not having answered a question never asked.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nist&x=18&y=22

Main Entry: re·vi·sion·ism
Pronunciation: ri-'vi-zh&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : a movement in revolutionary Marxian socialism favoring an evolutionary rather than a revolutionary spirit
2 : advocacy of revision (as of a doctrine or policy or in historical analysis)
- re·vi·sion·ist /-nist/ noun or adjective

Here is the entire history of NY Yankee home attendance, all the way Oriole Park, Hilltop Park, Polo Grounds IV, Yankee Stadiums I & II.

Please state how the attendance relates to winning, and how other teams haven't been affected by the same attendance boost during the winning years.

As to a Yankee "fan" in Anaheim being a bandwagoner, then what do you have to say of those who'd never supported their local team, but suddenly became huge fans in 2002? From my various California-based Yankee fans, one of whom has idolized Roger Maris since when he'd played, I don't think it's fair to say that people automatically root for the home team. You're going to doubt my friend's sincerity?

Anaheim's Edison Field is known as "Yankee Stadium West", Baltimore's Camden Yards is known as "Yankee Stadium South", and since George lives in Tampa Bay, there are tons of Yankee fans there supporting their adopted home team. Now then, please let me know why you'd question all of those people's sincerity and devotion as baseball fans.

[RuthMayBond]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by BC498
Of course this is true. I think what Mattingly is upset about is that (correct me if I'm wrong) he feels that you are categorizing all Yankees fans as bandwagon fans. The Yankees do have the largest group of bandwagon "fans". True Yankee fans however are as devout and loyal as any other.

I cannot excuse the sorry late 60s or the 80s. I know I was there. I know many people who still followed the team intently whether or not they attended games. Sadly, I would say its about a 60/40 split at Yankees stadium these days. But when there are 55,000 on a cold, Tuesday night against the Tigers when A-Rod is taking a day off and Lieber is pitching; I can't dispute the devotion of true Yankee fans.

Generally speaking, yes. There are exceptions to every rule however.

I think the original quote was about the Yanks having the largest number of bandwagon fans, which I'd think would have to be true. Can you imagine a bandwagon Devil Rays fan

[RuthMayBond]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by Mattingly
Here is the entire history of NY Yankee home attendance, all the way Oriole Park, Hilltop Park, Polo Grounds IV, Yankee Stadiums I & II.

Please state how the attendance relates to winning, and how other teams haven't been affected by the same attendance boost during the winning years.

As far as recent history, look at the dropoff after 1964 (surprise), the increase starting in 1976 (surprise). I am surprised that the dropoff held off until after 1988. Look at the jump, starting in 1996 (surprise). But probably most other teams wouldn't be that different, with exception of giving Cubs fans kudos

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by RuthMayBond
I think the original quote was about the Yanks having the largest number of bandwagon fans, which I'd think would have to be true. Can you imagine a bandwagon Devil Rays fan

I realize that. I just wanted the facts to be known. I'll try analyzing them later on, but I remember that not in every single time they'd gone to the WS (like 1981), did the attendance boom as much.

All other teams' entire attendance history are also available on that site.

[RuthMayBond]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by Mattingly
I realize that. I just wanted the facts to be known. I'll try analyzing them later on, but I remember that not in every single time they'd gone to the WS (like 1981), did the attendance boom as much.

All other teams' entire attendance history are also available on that site.

Cubs
Year Move in Standings Change in Attendance
1946 drop to 3rd up
1947 drop to 5th up
1971 drop to 4th up
1972 up to 2nd down
1973 drop to 5th up
1976 up to 4th down
1979 drop to 5th up
1985 drop to 4th up
1996 drop to 4th up
1999 drop to 6th up
2001 up to 3rd down

[jhwinfrey]

The Royals' top seasons in total attendance:
1. 1989 – 2.478 M
2. 1987 – 2.392 M
3. 1988 – 2.350 M
4. 1986 – 2.321 M
5. 1980 – 2.289 M
6. 1979 – 2.262 M
7. 1978 – 2.255 M
8. 1990 – 2.245 M
9. 1985 – 2.163 M
10. 1991 – 2.162 M

The top 3 attendance years followed seasons that were nothing special.

#4 followed KC's only WS win, and #6, 7, & 9 following division winning seasons. KC simply had an attendance boom from 1985 to 1991. And we haven't been back over the 2 million mark since. Will Royals fans hop on the bandwagon in 2004?

[johncap]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by Mattingly
If you're true to your team, check out the ST games, root them on even when they're behind by 10 runs going into the 8th, check out opposing players' ERA and BA against your guys, have have mementos in your home of the team, wear the uni, go to games, root hard for them always, then who's to say that's not a fan? You?

Yes, me. It's unnatural if the team one is being fanatical about is not a natural team to root for. More often than not that person will be rooting just as hard for another team as soon as that one lets them down. That's NOT what being a fan is about. And yes, it's my opinion. It's artificial and phoney. And short-lived and marketing based.

[johncap]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top offensive team ?

Originally posted by Mattingly
Please state how the attendance relates to winning, and how other teams haven't been affected by the same attendance boost during the winning years.

I see you're a huge fan of Webster. Were you a fan of his dictionaries BEFORE he won the pulitzer prize for literature or only after? Have you since switched to loving Steven King?

Of course every team's attendance goes up and down with the success of the team. But to listent to Yankee fans they are there come hell or high water. It's simply not true. The fact is that it's been a long time since they had a bad team.