The Bitter Rivals Thread

[Mattingly]

VT

Neither pitcher liked the zone. Everyone got squeezed, but I think that Petey was painting the corners and was mighty tricky on the 2 strike count, just keeping it away to avoid a hit. He should either be a stealth or a Teflon pitcher.

For Armando, he's not a guy who handles pressure as well, but I think he's a solid pitcher. Posada's PB forced Joe's hand, as everything suddenly became a pressure cooker with 3B runner, 2 outs, 2-0 count. It was Mo Rivera who didn't handle the pressure, so you probably won't see him until Sunday. Either case, Benitez is an ex closer, and I'm not sure if he's used to 2 innings or however the Mets used him in the NL.

Fox game on tomorrow? McCarver's a good interviewer on his Fox show (I caught the one with Whitey Ford), but Buck & McCarver are a nasty anti-Yankee duo, so I'm surprised you can't stand them either. I keep hearing about their blabbering about fishing, walking the dog, golf or whatever. I guess if Scooter said this, it would be hilarious, but these two make the unimportant junk into the main show. That's why I listen to the radio.

Oh well, if we win tomorrow, I think Ken will be a very *colorful* and happy man.

I just realized, this is the 1,000th post of this thread. Amazing how little life we have.

[RedSoxFanAtic]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Before Domination through Money

Originally posted by Mattingly
Other than Ruth, who were the players who were "bought"? I mean, Gehrig came from Columbia U, was brought into the farm, then came up in 1925. Who are the players the Yanks "bought" before winning their first WS in 1923, why it became a "formula", as you say?

As to the World Championships you list, do you have a link? Not that I'm doubting you, but I don't know of anything showing who won those games in the 19th century, though I'm familiar with the National Association, American Association, and a few others mentioned.

As to 1904, I don't even know the full story as to what happened. I think that the NY Giants didn't find Boston worthy of playing, so they decided not to play them. I don't remember the full story, so what happened?

BTW, I welcome the challenge, but none of us really knows what'll happen at the end of September. We can all root for our respective teams, but nobody really can guarantee anything.

first point - who were the players bought? come on! you can't seriously expect us to believe that your that unaware of the many, many, many stars the yanks have constantly used their money to secure through the years. I already ripped off a list of about 12 redsox alone they bought during the twenties. Playing dumb about that point is just plain silly.
Giambi? Mussina? Matsui? Contrarous?
I don't even need to think hard.
I can't believe you would have the gall to even question the point.
second point - you need me to prove who has won the world championships of baseball for you?
ya ok then, I guess.
here's a link to help you along:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/4222/

third point - 1904 - you think they didn't consider them 'worthy' to play?
You make my point for me. They cowered out of the championship match - there's no explanation necessary. If they were confident they would win they'd be no reason not to crush them and prove their superiority.
Totally Lame.
The world series was played the year before and the year after. Explain it away all you want - NY's actions spoke louder than words - they chickened out and embarrassed themselves to the baeball world. end of story.
Don't really get your point on the fourth issue. I don't think the sox are superior to the yanks - that's obvious. I just think bragging about 26 world championships is ignoring the truth about the money advantage used to win them. Have the Yanks done alot right through the years and deserve alot of credit? sure - of course. They've been a really well run organization at many times and run things really smart. But whenever they screw up or falter, they can just fix their mistakes with money, and nobody else can do that. Hence, many championships are shallow and tainted IMO.
I think yankee fans should be proud of their teams accomplishments, but not feel superior, as some obvious do.

[RedSoxFanAtic]

lame

Originally posted by Mattingly
I've heard something about the NY Giants not thinking Boston was worthy, so they refused to play them. Was this the case, or were they just scared? I never got the full story.

this post, if you actually buy that is pretty bad. any team that refuses to play is weak. it is obviously an excuse to say 'they are not worthy'. how pompous is that? obviously there was some fear of losing there or they would've just taken delight in crushing them and proving themselves superior. but they ran away and refused to play, and made lame excuses like their 'superior'. please. The fac that you'd even consider that a viable explanation is ridiculous.

[RedSoxFanAtic]

first game loss

I'm bummed the sox last last night.

I thought Pedro screwed up when he blew giambi away with fastballs and hade 2 strikes on bernie with fastballs.
he knew it was his last inning, he should've continued to give em all the gas he had and forced them to beat his best pitch. they couldn't catch up to the heat, and he sped up their bats by throwing the slower curve to bernie for the single.
then the sox tied it up and this freakin substitute guy who's been nothing all year except against the redsox bangs a single against kim and steals his 2nd base of the night (and the season!!).
I mean COME ON!!!!!!
I though Kim should've come in with hard rising fastballs to jeter but he just came over the plate.
tough, tough loss.
My impression is the sox didn't play intelligently and the yanks did. The sox didn't force the pitchers to thow strikes and wait for their pitch - they swung way too many timmes early in the count or at balls outside the zone - they got themselves out and didn't force the pitch count up. The yanks showed more plate discipline and forced us to get them out more.
plus manny's baserunning blunder?
how pathetic is that to do in a game of this magnitude. I'm embarrassed.
Ortiz got thrown out against tamp bay to kill a rally on an obvious single trying to stretch to a double. sox are playing dumb which is a reflection of their dumb manager.
I hope to god he's gone next year.
oh well, hope we can rebound today, but expect mussina to pitch great and the yanks to pound to old man lame-o burkett.
maybe lowe can avert a sweep, but I'm not optimistic.
Guess theo will acquire pitching help after we're out of the race, eh?

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before Domination through Money

Originally posted by RedSoxFanAtic
first point - who were the players bought? come on! you can't seriously expect us to believe that your that unaware of the many, many, many stars the yanks have constantly used their money to secure through the years. I already ripped off a list of about 12 redsox alone they bought during the twenties. Playing dumb about that point is just plain silly.
Giambi? Mussina? Matsui? Contrarous?

I thought you'd said something about Boston players. I thought you were referring to players "bought" from Boston back around the 1920s, not current times. Those 12 BoSox players, if they were from the 1920s, that's what I was referring to.

Hey, you guys wanted Contreras also, and guess which slugger was "bought" from Cleveland, plays LF at Fenway.

I'll try responding to the rest of your post later on, but I don't think the Yankees are the only teams that have "bought" players. I can't fault the strategy, since it doesn't force teams to give up prized farmhands whom they don't wish to part with.

The Phillies "bought" Jim Thome, and I don't know of any contending teams, including Boston, which rely exclusvely on trades and the farm.

As to "playing dumb", please note that if you have no intention of being civil, please don't expect the same in return. There are other Boston fans here whose time I value, since they are always more civil to me, rather than offering cheesy shots.

[Mattingly]

Re: lame

Originally posted by RedSoxFanAtic
this post, if you actually buy that is pretty bad. any team that refuses to play is weak. it is obviously an excuse to say 'they are not worthy'. how pompous is that? obviously there was some fear of losing there or they would've just taken delight in crushing them and proving themselves superior. but they ran away and refused to play, and made lame excuses like their 'superior'. please. The fac that you'd even consider that a viable explanation is ridiculous.

I never said I was a baseball historian, so if my account of events are foggy, that's not my fault, so please don't criticize me for what little I'd heard about this event from almost 100 years ago. I have no idea why you're blaming me for my belief of any "weak" or "lame excuses" suposedly said by some other NY team's management. If the old Boston Braves had done something like this, could someone badmouth you over this, even if it involved another Boston team?

There's an ongoing thread under "History" started by myself in case you'd like to elaborate there. I believe that would be the most appropriate place and forum to post comments about that to. I'd prefer not to continue that here, since it involves a defunct team currently playing in San Francisco, certainly not a current "rival" of Boston's or the Yankees'.

Thanks in advance.

[BC498]

Originally posted by VTSoxFan
Damn damn damn! And Damn again!

I thought Questec was supposed to speed up the game, not add to walk totals. I think we should all band together as concerned citizens and beat the daylights out of every Questec camera in existence. And then feed the broken bits to the geniuses who decided to use it. I could just not belieeeeve some of those calls tonight. The strike zone (ok, Petey did have 10Ks, I know) was about the size of a box of kleenex, except for when Millar was called out on that shoulder-high fastball.

I have a headache.

Torre shoulda left Benitez in. He was just getting good.

Oh my god, we gotta listen to McCarver tomorrow. My headache just got worse.

I agree with you on Questec. I never liked the idea because of that oft-cited "human element" that umpires and varrying strike zones bring to the game. A pitcher should be able to expand the strike zone. I mean David Wells walks five batters all season and he walks five in one start. Then Pedro walks four? Something is wrong with that picture.

From what I've heard, Questec also misses hard breaking pitches. Well that's just great! Questec has had an adverse affect on the speed of games (even though avg. times are down), and it misses breaking pitches. Why does baseball hate the pitcher so? It lowers the mound, introduces the DH, and now Questec.

I'll accept Questec on three conditions;
1) Strip hitters of their obscene armor.
2) A hitter must return to the batter's box within five seconds of stepping out. And It's not just "Nomah".
3) Let pitchers pitch inside for crying out loud!

And McCarver is the reason I still proudly cling to my radio. I just wish I was listening to the game on radio yesterday instead of having that yahoo jumping up and down for the camera in the ninth inning.

[Mattingly]

Tough luck, couldn't get that last run in, but Ortiz did. I'll have to put all my eggs in Weaver's basket on Sunday.

[Biggerin]

man... what a series so far...

I don't think i can take another one, lol.

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by Biggerin
man... what a series so far...

I don't think i can take another one, lol.

Last night killed me. I wish that Joe brought in someone else when Ortiz came up.

[VTSoxFan]

I'm exhausted! What a couple of nailbiters! I threw my scoresheets, pencil, and assorted other things at least twice before the end of the game. Why, oh why did Nomar -- NOMAR -- try to bunt? Good grief.

Thanks, Enrique, for the "don't let this happen to you" baserunning lesson. Cut down 15 feet short by a very nice Manny-Nomar-Tek relay. Also brilliant catches by (grudgingly) Bernie Williams and Johnny Damon. How about Jeremy Giambi's first ever Major League stolen base directly contributing to the win?

Did anyone else hear McCarver say that he thinks Varitek is the best catcher in the Majors? While I quite often disagree with Blabbermouth, I had to concur with this statement.

Mattingly -- I see what you mean: Buck and McCarver did seem kind of anti-Yanks today. If I were on The Other Side I'd be kind of steamed at them. Didn't bother me too much, though.

BC498 -- point of order -- Nomar never leaves the batter's box. He always keeps one foot in. Manny's the one who likes to take a constitutional around home plate when he fouls off a pitch. Also, if it's determined that when a batter is hit, if the part of him that was hit is in the strike zone (see Soriano, A.) then it should be ruled a strike, not a HBP. Yes, let the pitchers pitch inside. Raise the mound, ban body armor, junk Questec and its proponents, and ban metal bats in college ball. That should help.

Hey, RSFA, what about today? Sure, I was skeptical about pulling Embree, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one wanting to cuff Nomar for that stupid lame pop-up on the bunt attempt. But it seems Mussina was the one whacked around, and old man' Lame-o Burkett held them to what, 3 hits and no runs? I think he could have gotten out of the 6th, too.

Last -- while I leave Mattingly to defend himself, I have to say that I find the calumny shown him for making completely innocuous statements very repugnant. Take issue with the posts, not the poster. I don't care if he's a NYY fan, a Giants fan or a hockey fan -- leave the incivility in the bleachers. Please. Thank you.

[Mattingly]

VT, I heard from other Yankee fans that Buck & McCarver were practically putting gas in the tank of Boston's car to get them to pass the Yankees. I don't know what why Buck's so anti-Yankee, but McCarver was on the 1964 Cards team that beat us in the WS. Either way, I refuse to listen to a Fox game, and if Kay broadcasts on YES, I won't listen to this either.

For the game, I guess Benitez needs more time before he can get the 3rd out. Strike 2, yes, strike 3 or the putout, nope.

Mussina and Burkett switched bodies before the game began, and thankfully, Orosco did well, even getting the righty out on quite a few pitches. I'm at least glad that Nick Johnson got to Sauerbeck, but a little too late.

I should get a massage before and after Sunday's game, since that's a little too much excitement and nail biting for all of two days.

[KenFougere]

Go Jeffery!

Originally posted by Mattingly
Tough luck, couldn't get that last run in, but Ortiz did. I'll have to put all my eggs in Weaver's basket on Sunday.

I like when you say things like that! I think that Weaver and your basket will both UN-weave tomorrow!!!
{The saying goes, "Never put your eggs in one basket..."} -Especially one with a known hole in it!

[BC498]

Wow, this is great baseball.

VT, you're right of course about Nomar, I made a sort of amalgam of between-pitch rituals and stepping out of the box. I agree with your HBP comments as well. Soriano's arm is hanging about three inches into the strike zone. If the pitch hits him in the strike zone, it should be a strike.

Speaking of the strikezone it didn't get much better today. For instance that 1-2 to Jeter in the 7th was a strike, but I'll gladly take that one. It looked like Jeremy was out to me, but I guess you have to give it to him since he finally learned to slide. You can tell Nomar doesn't bunt much. After what he did last year on his birthday, and what he had done in his first three AB's why was he here? This isn't the Astros. Finally, Enrique, what are you doing?!? Second and third, Giambi coming up? I know he's hitting .170 against lefties, but come on! Okay I'm done.

I'm none to fond of Mr. Weaver's chances of shutting down the BoSox, but it is time for his inconsistencies to swing the other way. You know what Mattingly, a massage sounds wonderful. Bernie's album came out just in time; listen to some soothing Jazz, and relax for about 22 hours.

[VTSoxFan]

I gotta get Bernie's album. I am a big fan of classical, Spanish and jazz guitar music and the snippet they played on Fox today sounded great. There was a lot about it on TWIB a couple weeks ago, too. I can't remember the title of it, though.

It should be interesting to compare ESPN's K-Zone to what the ump calls tomorrow, working in fear of Questec (or "Tictac" as Jerry Remy calls it). I thought the zone was a little more generous today, which no doubt helped Burkett get the corners.

Gotta get some rest, as I intend to be up late tomorrow night!