The Bitter Rivals Thread

[KenFougere]

Well, technically we're at the cabin right now. [I was delayed in the city because I had to stick around to receive an "award" for something I did 20+ years ago. (Check FB Ken!)] But the cabin has high speed internet, DirectTV, and 50 yards of private beach. Ah, today's sunrise....

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Just when I think you've reached the 'sucking' pinnacle, (I'm sure many, many have told you that, in general, you really suck. I mean that's a given.)

Well, sometimes you can surprise even me and take how much you suck to a whole new level. Well, here, you've done just that and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the "award" you received was for . . . Congrats. -

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I just got off your FB. {Now I feel like a heel for my original post above. Thanks.}

Congratulations, my friend. I'm proud of you. - nod.gif

-------------P.S. I'm sure my cabin invitation is on the way. Unless, of course, you mailed it in N.Y.

[KenFougere]

Don't be like YankeeMan

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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[YankeeMan]

That's not the sun shining. That's the shimmer of Stephen Drew's 2013 World Series Ring that you are seeing. He must have arrived at the stadium early today for some much needed BP.

Okay, we've conducted an extended search of the beach for your friend's ring... [Here's a pic of the "lead searcher" (Bobby) conducting a "temp check." ]

Temp check.JPG

Then we searched the water... [Here's our snorkel team conducting the search... ]

search.JPG

Finally, we held a séance to contact the spirit of Ted Williams... [Here's our team conducting the marshmallow part of the ritual. ]

fire.JPG

But all he kept saying was 2-3-5 risp. Hmm, we're still trying to decode that message. [I also asked him where the ring was lost and he replied "April." :clown: (Does your friend Stephen maybe know a girl named April?).]

-------------P.S. I'm sure my cabin invitation is on the way. Unless, of course, you mailed it in N.Y.

Ken,
You and your family have an open invitation. I'd love to put you up in the "blue room." I think you'd love the pinstriped décor. bigger laugh.gif

[KenFougere]

Ken,
You and your family have an open invitation. I'd love to put you up in the "blue room." I think you'd love the pinstriped décor. [ATTACH]141220[/ATTACH]

....................................

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[KenFougere]

Red Sox Hall of Fame: Pedro Martinez vs. Roger Clemens

Red Sox Hall of Fame: Pedro Martinez vs. Roger Clemens

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It is the Red Sox Hall of Fame—not the National Baseball Hall of Fame—induction, held Thursday morning in Boston, not Cooperstown.

So as Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez stand aside one another, arguably the two most dynamic, if not best, pitchers in that franchise’s history and analytically two of the 17 best starters in major league history, period, it will be a Hall of Fame moment that circumstances and their era may never allow to be replicated after Martinez takes the stage in Cooperstown for that induction next July.

In his 13 seasons with the Red Sox, Clemens tied Cy Young for the most wins in franchise history with 192, and his career 354 wins are the most of any pitcher Hall of Fame eligible for but not in Cooperstown. Martinez pitched seven seasons for Boston in the height of the Steroids Era, winning 117 games, losing 37, with a 2.52 earned run average that was nearly two runs lower than the American League average in those seven seasons. In fact, in 2000, Pedro’s ERA was 1.74, 3.17 runs better than the league average of 4.91.

Clemens burst into Boston less than a year after being the 19th pick in the 1983 draft out of the University of Texas. He was shut down with a forearm injury midway through the 1985 season, but returned in 1986 to fire a 20 strikeout, no walk game against the Mariners on April 29, won 24 games, captured the MVP and Cy Young Awards, won two more Cy Youngs in Boston and was forever in the spotlight. He walked out of spring training in 1987 in a contract dispute that Commissioner Pete Ueberroth mediated and ended. He was a larger than life Texan character whose five day routine was liken by Mike Boddicker as “prep for the Texas-Oklahoma game,” he twice had 20 strikeout, no walk games, but sometimes crossed into the steamy side of controversy, being ejected from a 1990 playoff game in Oakland, then, in 1996, after striking out 93 in his last 73 2/3 innings the last two months, left as a free agent for Toronto after General Manager Dan Duquette said he was “in the twilight of his career.”

Clemens went on to win 162 more games and eventually was steeped in other off-field controversies, but also won four more Cy Youngs with the Blue Jays, Yankees, (Boo and Astros. And as a Yankee, Clemens and Martinez met three times in the post-season.

P e d r o v s. R o g e r.png

The first was Game 3 of the 1999 ALCS, with Martinez coming off a shoulder injury and six relief no hit innings in the decisive Game 5 clincher in Cleveland. Clemens had back issues, gave up 5 runs in 2 innings, Martinez allowed 2 hits and no runs in 7 innings with 12 strikeouts and the Red Sox won 13-1, much to the delight of Boston fans who had lived for a generation being reminded of the 1978 playoff game.

Then Clemens and Martinez met again twice in 2003. In Game 3, Clemens won 4-3, but it was the ugliness of Martinez throwing at Karim Garcia and tossing Don Zimmer that turned into chaos. But in Game 7, Clemens was knocked out in the fourth inning—saved to four runs when Mike Mussina came out of the bullpen to get out of a bases-loaded, no out jam—and then the night became history when Boson manager Grady Little changed his mind and sent Pedro out to pitch the eighth inning with a 5-2 lead. It unravelled, Jorge Posada’s bloop double tied it at 5 and in the 11th inning Aaron Boone homered off Tim Wakefield. Little was fired and replaced by Terry Francona, Boone blew out his knee playing basketball, the Yankees traded for Alex Rodriguez…ah, how Roger and Pedro altered history.

Where Clemens’ favorability polls wildly fluctuated, Pedro was, in his time, the most popular sports figure in New England. When the Braves played in Fenway in 1999, Bobby Cox noticed that Fenway fans only went to the concessions stands when the Red Sox were at-bat. No Pedro moments were to be missed, an affection that even today gets him the loudest ovations when there are ballpark alumni events. To have an ERA 3.17 runs lower than league average was unprecedented. In terms of ERA-plus, which takes into account the eras pitchers played, Martinez is the best starter of all time. His baserunners per innings are the best, ever. His career strikeout-walk ratio is second only to that of Curt Schilling.

But in terms of career pitchers’ Wins Above Replacement, Pedro ranks 16th, Clemens ranks 3rd, two spots below all-time leader Cy Young, who was on the staff of the first Red Sox team—then called the Boston Americans—in 1901. And their first World Series champion, in 1903.

On the façade in right field are the numbers of Red Sox players whose numbers have been retired. None are pitchers, but it is safe to say that other than Ted Williams, two of the three most tempestuous and spectacular figures in their Boston times were Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez, along with David Ortiz. Pedro will forever be remembered as the Red Sox pitcher who defined duende, Roger will ever be remembered for a Springsteen volume of greatness, but in August, 2015, when Martinez has been enshrined in Cooperstown and had his number 45 retired onto that right field façade, the question will again be asked if 21 and 45 will ever be on the same wall of enshrinement, on that Fenway roof, or by the shores of Lake Otsego.

Someday, Martinez, Clemens, Luis Tiant, Curt Schilling, Bruce Hurst and Jon Lester will all be in the Red Sox Hall of Fame. Having covered them all—no, I did not cover Cy Young or Babe Ruth–and every post-season each pitched, the oft-asked question is: If you had to choose one to pitch the seventh game of the last World series you will ever see, who would it be?

Boston's Playoff Pitchers.png

One can begin by arguing that Schilling is the greatest post-season pitcher in history. Of course, with his analytical position as the 26th best starter ever (two spots below Mike Mussina), he should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. He was 11-2, 2.23 in his post-seasons, 133 1/3 innings, 104 hits, 25 walks, 120 strikeouts, with three World Series rings in a seven year stretch. Two of them were with the Red Sox, and in each post-season, he won games in all three series. In 2004, he limped with the bloody sock. In 2007, his preparation, control and creativity was never more evident, as he was often throwing 85 miles an hour.

But as great a post-season competitor and craftsman as he was, his greatest performances came before he was traded to the Red Sox, for the Phillies and Diamondbacks. Clemens was not a great post-season performer. Bruce Hurst and Jon Lester were; some may forget that besides Martinez, Lester has thrown more post-season innings for the Red Sox than any of the other five, and notice that he has the best earned run average, 2.11.

But, in my mind, it comes to Pedro vs. El Tiante, in my mind’s eye the two most electrifying pitchers to ever start in Fenway Park. If Grady Little had pulled Pedro after the seventh inning, he might win this, with ease. But understand this: Clemens’ pitch count was an issue in Game Six, 1986. It was an issue for Pedro in Game Seven, 2003.

Pitch counts were never an issue with Tiant; his teammates used to say he protected a lead as if it were his family. In Game Four, 1975, he had a 5-4 lead in the fifth inning with two on and one out. He had two on and one out in the sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth innings. In the ninth, manager Darrell Johnson came to the mound, and Tiant yelled at him, “get the (—) back in the dugout. Joe Morgan popped up Tiant’s 173rd pitch, the Red Sox won 5-4 and a few days later “if it stays fair…”

Obviously Tiant only got to start four post-season games, because the Red Sox made the post-season once in his time. But along with the 173 pitch classic, he completely dominated the Athletics and Reds in the ALCS and World Series openers, and, remember, the A’s and Reds won five World Series in his time in a Boston uniform.

Peter Gammons

[YankeeMan]

Red Sox Hall of Fame: Pedro Martinez vs. Roger Clemens

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It is the Red Sox Hall of Fame—not the National Baseball Hall of Fame—induction, held Thursday morning in Boston, not Cooperstown.

blah-blah-blah.

Peter Gammons

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[KenFougere]

Somebody wake up the old man. On second thought . . . .

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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:blah :..............................

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[KenFougere]

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H a p p y - 7 5 t h - B i r t h d a y , - Y a z !

Yaz's Last at bat Oct 1 1983.jpg

His last at bat. October 2, 1983

[YankeeMan]

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H a p p y - 7 5 t h - B i r t h d a y , - Y a z !

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His last at bat. October 2, 1983

Flied out to second in the 7th. Sox won tho (3-1 over Cle).

[YankeeMan]

I'd just like to point out that Madden Season is almost here!

I'm looking to play anyone who meets the following conditions:

Must've attend UMass-Lowell (It's a hockey thing, you wouldn't understand.)
Must live in the Greater Boston Area and a fan of the "local" NFL Football team in Foxborough.
Must be a Sox fan who can remember some of the 1978 baseball season -- especially how it ended.

If this describes YOU -- I'm calling you out.

[Hiya Ken! ]

[KenFougere]

I'd just like to point out that Madden Season is almost here!

I'm looking to play anyone who meets the following conditions:

Must've attend UMass-Lowell (It's a hockey thing, you wouldn't understand.)
Must live in the Greater Boston Area and a fan of the "local" NFL Football team in Foxborough.
Must be a Sox fan who can remember some of the 1978 baseball season -- especially how it ended.

If this describes YOU -- I'm calling you out.

[Hiya Ken! ]

Sorry, I don't meet your qualifications. I went to UMass-Boston.

UMass`1000.jpg

[YankeeMan]

Sorry, I don't meet your qualifications. I went to UMass-Boston.

Close enough!

Maybe you can have one of your grandchildren to show you how to work the Xbox One controller. :clown:

[TonyK]

Close enough!

Maybe you can have one of your grandchildren to show you how to work the Xbox One controller. :clown:

I took a course with the hockey coach at UMass-Lowell once. He was always bragging about his hockey team so I told him to get the puck out of here.

[KenFougere]

Close enough!

Maybe you can have one of your grandchildren to show you how to work the Xbox One controller. :clown:

1. I have no grandchildren yet. My 18 y.o. son starts UMass, BOSTON this September.
   
2. We only have a Playstaion 4 no Xbox. (Lucky YOU !)
   
3. I'm sure he's taking his PS 4 to college with him.

(Besides, wasn't the BoSox 2013 Championship enough embarrassment for you to handle for a while?) -

[YankeeMan]

...Besides, wasn't the BoSox 2013 Championship enough embarrassment for you to handle for a while? -

Apparently this year's Yankee team didn't think so...