The Bitter Rivals Thread

[drillerman]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Actually, not only is Mulder out, so is Hudson. Harden looked like a fool out there yesterday, and the "Golden Boy" is now 3-3, with an ERA well over 4. Finally, to round out the "Big 4", Zito isn't having another Cy Young season, not by a long shot. The way I see it, Oakland's "Big 4" is falling apart in the most crucial part of the season.

This is the reason i watch the N.L. and not the A.L. . we all know whose gonna win the east and the west but the central race is on this year. And the Pitcher gets to bat.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by drillerman
This is the reason i watch the N.L. and not the A.L. . we all know whose gonna win the east and the west but the central race is on this year. And the Pitcher gets to bat.

You watch the NL because it's predictable? What kind of reason is that?

[Mattingly]

Originally posted by drillerman
This is the reason i watch the N.L. and not the A.L. . we all know whose gonna win the east and the west but the central race is on this year. And the Pitcher gets to bat.

I think that shows more NL favoritism than anything else. If anything, the NL East and NL West leaders have bigger leads than anything else, and the NL Central leader has about the same lead as the AL Central.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings

AL East:

1st - Yanks
2nd - BoSox, 7.0 GB

AL Central:

1st - ChiSox
2nd - Twinkies, 0.5 GB

AL West:

1st - Seattle
2nd - Oakland, 3.0 GB

NL East:

1st - Atlanta
2nd - Phillies, 11.5 GB

NL Central:

1st - Houston
2nd - St Louis, 1.0 GB

NL West:

1st - Giants
2nd - Arizona, 9.5 GB

[tearforamariner]

AL is the more exciting of the two leagues to watch, at least in recent years. What I am talking about is the annual AL West race. I'm talking about the AL Central, while it may not have the greatest quality of teams, is exciting because of how close it is every year. I'm talking about the AL East and the rivalry that inspired this thread. Every year, millions of fans wait and watch, hoping for Boston to destroy the Evil Empire. The NL is cool, but it's not better than the AL.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
AL is the more exciting of the two leagues to watch, at least in recent years. What I am talking about is the annual AL West race. I'm talking about the AL Central, while it may not have the greatest quality of teams, is exciting because of how close it is every year. I'm talking about the AL East and the rivalry that inspired this thread. Every year, millions of fans wait and watch, hoping for Boston to destroy the Evil Empire. The NL is cool, but it's not better than the AL.

Funny, I always thought of them as the same except one has a DH.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by Hammerin Hank
Funny, I always thought of them as the same except one has a DH.

All I meant Hank was that the only exciting contests in the NL anymore are the WC and the NL Central. All four playoff contests are exciting in the AL.

[Hammerin Hank]

Oh, I misunderstood you. You were just talking about this year alone.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by Hammerin Hank
Oh, I misunderstood you. You were just talking about this year alone.

More or less. I guess I would throw in the last few seasons as well. It's rather predictable who's going to win the NL East now. The NL West can get competitive, but generally we know its the Giants.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
More or less. I guess I would throw in the last few seasons as well. It's rather predictable who's going to win the NL East now. The NL West can get competitive, but generally we know its the Giants.

Not necessarily. Looking at some of the prediction threads from before the season, many people had the Dodgers or Diamondbacks as the winners of the division.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by Hammerin Hank
Not necessarily. Looking at some of the prediction threads from before the season, many people had the Dodgers or Diamondbacks as the winners of the division.

I know what you're saying Hank, and you do have a point.

[RedSoxFanAtic]

Re: $$$

Originally posted by YankeeMan
Don't cry broke to me Boston. Just because our owner takes the money and reinvests in in player personnel and yours puts it in his pocket -- that's not the Yankees fault.

your owner buys any player he wants in baseball by paying way more than any team can possible compete with.

our payroll is about half yours. that's like 180 million to like 90 million. thats a 90 million dollar difference. even if this isn't accurate - doesn't matter, it's somewhat correct which is bad just the same. your teams spending and demanding to take all the available talent is a big part of what is wrong with the game. most team's don't have a quarter of yout payrole. trying to minimize it just doesn't fly. people know it's true. your deceiving youself to think it's no big deal. it is a big deal and it makes your success forced, inevitable and almost guarenteed. who the hell can beat a team that spends 200 million? it's totally absurd.

you have no argument, you just like winning and will defend whatever your owner does because it's fun for you to root for a team that dominates. truth doesn't matter much to you, just outcomes.

it's ridiculous.

[tearforamariner]

Re: Re: $$$

Originally posted by RedSoxFanAtic
your owner buys any player he wants in baseball by paying way more than any team can possible compete with.

our payroll is about half yours. that's like 180 million to like 90 million. thats a 90 million dollar difference. even if this isn't accurate - doesn't matter, it's somewhat correct which is bad just the same. your teams spending and demanding to take all the available talent is a big part of what is wrong with the game. most team's don't have a quarter of yout payrole. trying to minimize it just doesn't fly. people know it's true. your deceiving youself to think it's no big deal. it is a big deal and it makes your success forced, inevitable and almost guarenteed. who the hell can beat a team that spends 200 million? it's totally absurd.

you have no argument, you just like winning and will defend whatever your owner does because it's fun for you to root for a team that dominates. truth doesn't matter much to you, just outcomes.

it's ridiculous.

My resource, which hasn't always been reliable, says that the Yankees have a payroll of $180 million, and the Sox are at about $100 million.

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: $$$

Originally posted by RedSoxFanAtic
your owner buys any player he wants in baseball by paying way more than any team can possible compete with.

For example? I can't see how the Yanks paid more for our guys than anyone else did. During the Mussina/Manny debate, when both were available via FA, if that were true, then George would've just have gotten both. He didn't. In fact, he paid less for Mussina ($14.75m/yr) than Boston did for Manny ($20m/yr).

Jason Giambi costs us $17.1m as an FA, which is about the price that the Phillies paid for Jim Thome, and the same that Carlos Delgado makes as a Blue Jay. The Yanks didn't pay any more than others did for comparable 1B players. Considering that Giambi is the highest priced non-farm FA Yankee ever, I'd say that's significant.

In fact, it was the Mets who paid that same price for Mo Vaughn, which is an obvious overpayment, per his lack of production.

If we can afford any other player out there, then where's Ichiro? Where's Bonds? Where's A-Rod? Where's Pujols? Where's Rolen? Where's Shiggy? Where's Vlad? Where's Gagne? With other teams, that's where they are.

[tearforamariner]

Re: Re: Re: $$$

Originally posted by Mattingly
For example? I can't see how the Yanks paid more for our guys than anyone else did. During the Mussina/Manny debate, when both were available via FA, if that were true, then George would've just have gotten both. He didn't. In fact, he paid less for Mussina ($14.75m/yr) than Boston did for Manny ($20m/yr).

Jason Giambi costs us $17.1m as an FA, which is about the price that the Phillies paid for Jim Thome, and the same that Carlos Delgado makes as a Blue Jay. The Yanks didn't pay any more than others did for comparable 1B players. In fact, it was the Mets who paid that same price for Mo Vaughn, which is an obvious overpayment, per his lack of production.

Considering that Giambi is the highest priced non-farm FA Yankee ever, I'd say that's significant.

If we can afford any other player out there, then where's Ichiro? Where's Bonds? Where's A-Rod? Where's Pujols? Where's Rolen? Where's Shiggy? Where's Vlad? Where's Gagne? With other teams, that's where they are.

Actually Mattingly, the Yankees could've easily bought at least two of those players. Both of the Mariners you listed. Ichiro was in international spotlight before the M's got him (for a steal at less than $5 million a year), but no one else wanted to take a chance on a Japanese business player. Shiggy came to us from the Angels, and the Yankees could've easily outbid the what? $1.8 million were paying him every year? They didn't because it was too risky. Right or wrong, Steinbrenner played smart and didn't choose players who could've turned into busts.

[Mattingly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: $$$

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Actually Mattingly, the Yankees could've easily bought at least two of those players. Both of the Mariners you listed. Ichiro was in international spotlight before the M's got him (for a steal at less than $5 million a year), but no one else wanted to take a chance on a Japanese business player. Shiggy came to us from the Angels, and the Yankees could've easily outbid the what? $1.8 million were paying him every year? They didn't because it was too risky. Right or wrong, Steinbrenner played smart and didn't choose players who could've turned into busts.

For Ichiro, he was already signed to a contract in Japan, so he wasn't an FA, as used in the USA. Since he was in a contract, his bidding fee was $13m just to negotiate. At least that's when Seattle paid, in some auction type of bidding war, from what I remember.

Yes, the eventual $5m+ fee is a steal, but after having lost out on Hideki Irabu, the pitcher, I guess George wasn't truly convinced of how Japanese players - especially position players - would do in the USA. Ichiro is the first Japanese position player who's really considered among the best, and who'd have known that? I guess George didn't want to bid that much. Had he done so, he would've played LF in 2001 (in deference to Paulie O'Neill), and after that, in RF.

For Shiggy, I guess he wasn't really on the radar screen much, since his ERA was a little high (but certainly not ridiculous), but his pitching is awesome from what I'd seen against Boston. If I were Anaheim, I'd rather have him go to a the Yanks than a division rival. As a Yankee fan, him and Nelson in the pen would make an awesome 1-2-3 when Mo is added in. All 3 could close games out.

As to Steinbrenner avoiding players who could've been busts, I dunno. We were outbid for the K-Rod kid from the last playoffs, and he snuck in unscouted. No one can really predict what someone's going to do (like in the Buhn case), and unless I've seen a player, it's hard saying whether someone is worth the risk or not.

Oh, and Shiggy's way underpaid. I think that Mike Stanton was offered $2.5m by Brian Cashman, was insulted and hopped crosstown to the Mets. Had Shiggy done this before (how was he last season?), he would've been a great pickup if signed as a Yankee.