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  • Here's Westsideground's quote of the day in reponse to Sultan's statement about batters not charging the mound after brushback pitches in the old days.

    Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    You mean less brave with helmets? Cause those and charging the mound seem to have started around the same time.

    Any book of interviews with old time (pre helmet) ballplayers will tell you the same story over and over - A new guy, a rookie, shows up at the plate, and the opposing pitcher "dusts him off." Trying to "see what he's made of." If the new guy gets up, takes his same stance and looks out at the pitcher as if nothing happened, he's passed the test. If he whines or complains or makes any kind of big deal out of it, it goes all around the league that he's a wimp. His own teammates will look down on him.
    pheasant
    Registered User
    Last edited by pheasant; 08-26-2016, 08:51 AM.

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    • A retroactie POTD. Ubiq with an insightful post from 2006.

      Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
      How exactly does one show improvement in quality of game? Baseball is a balancing game not a pure physical game. It isn't 700 guys lineup at the start line and then bang runs as fast as they can to the finish line. You have players getting better actively competing and interacting with each other instead of merely judging ones performance against another. One guy pitches to another guy who either hits or does not to a bunch of other guys. So you are not going to see easily viewable improvements like you do in track and field, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Players are bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter then they were 100 years ago. To simply believe that that doesn't translate into better ballplayers well . . .I've never understood that view lets just say.

      The second thing I like to add is economics and the efficiency of the major leagues. Now some people like to argue that since the majors were only 16 teams that the league quality was bound to be higher because the talent was diluted. I don't believe that to be true. That view ignores the fact that for most of the 16 team history at the very least a quarter of the teams couldn't even field a competent team. Basically meaning that for most of baseball's 16 team history because of segregation and poor financial resources they probably would have been better off having a 12 team league instead of a 16 team league. They were over diluted by 25%. The fact that the league carried so many low talent ballclubs is one of the biggest reasons why when we looks at these individual records and stats we think players of yesteryear were so much better then anything nowadays. A quarter of the time at the very least the elite were playing against minor league ballplayers.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pheasant
        This thread gives is a great opportunity to show appreciation to those who made this the greatest baseball website in history(after factoring in LQ).

        Several posters here have been happy to help others become more educated on a wide variety of topics. We have statisticians, authors, creative writers, psychologists, former players, journalists, and several other great contributors from A wide variety of fields.

        I had no idea on the following when I joined this site less than 5 years ago: OPS+, WAR, WAA, the significance of park factors, several rule changes, the significance of home/road splits, the impact of integration, and several other topics.

        Several posters have opened my eyes to looking at context as well. When I got here, I was biased against Deadballers and figured they couldn't hit the long ball.

        I learned that Honus Wagner had serious athletic ability, particularly from the articles and pictures that were often posted by veteran poster whose initials are HWR, which probably stands for "Hrbek Willfuly Rules".

        I have learned a ton about Cobb from Bill Burgess, who is best friends with Cobb in Heaven right now and the two of them are goofing on Babe Ruth as I speak.

        Speaking of the Babe, I learned a ton from Randy, ShoelessJoe, and got to see several old-school photos from Bsmile that often brought that Babe to life.

        I miss ImaPotato's support of the Dead Ball players, particularly Cy Young, Nap Lajoie, and Ty Cobb

        And then we have statisticians like Bothrops and Brett.

        And I have also learned a bunch from Mr Devil's Advocate.

        And of course, the webmasters and moderators are great too.

        Guys like Chris and Herr were great to talk to. I haven't
        Seen them around lately. But hopefully, they will resurface.

        And then there's DrStrange, Giambi, white knight, Toledo, BigRon, and several others that have added to this site. Actually, everybody has been great!

        Thank you BBF members for making this the greatest baseball site ever.
        You nailed it Pheasant
        "Let me think it over, will ya Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some whitewalls, I'll talk to you later."
        Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

        Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

        Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

        Comment


        • I just noticed that yesterday was 12 years since I joined Baseball Fever. Where does the time go?!
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            I just noticed that yesterday was 12 years since I joined Baseball Fever. Where does the time go?!
            I guess your joining coincided with Bush v. Kerry. At the same time Donald Trump was wrapping up season 1 of The Apprentice.
            My top 10 players:

            1. Babe Ruth
            2. Barry Bonds
            3. Ty Cobb
            4. Ted Williams
            5. Willie Mays
            6. Alex Rodriguez
            7. Hank Aaron
            8. Honus Wagner
            9. Lou Gehrig
            10. Mickey Mantle

            Comment


            • https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...02#post3445902

              Comment


              • Brownieand45sfan
                baseball is about colors
                Last edited by Brownieand45sfan; 10-15-2017, 02:33 PM.

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                • It's time to get this thread going again. It's been over two years since the last Post of the Day.

                  From Chadwick.

                  Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                  The BBWAA electorate are journalists, nothing more. While they "get paid to watch ballgames", it's to report what happened on the field, not to measure or evaluate that performance. The people who make their living writing stories about yesterday's game and interviewing the people who played in it have an entirely different skill set than the players, managers, coaches, front office personnel, scouts and other professionals employed by the teams themselves. It's like people who watch American Idol on television. They may very well loyally watch every episode, and can faithfully recount what they saw on the show this week, last week, every week. They may absolutely love music (though that certainly isn't necessary to do the job). That said, they are not talent judges. They are not the people on the show whose opinions count in the results. They surely develop attitudes and opinions built on years of observations about which players are good and which are bad, which qualities or strategies are necessary to winning and which result in the opposite. Their job, their role, however, does not in any way lend authority to those opinions over yours and mine other than the fact that these people see more games than we do. They are not experts, but merely "professional" audience members.

                  Voters aren't "laymen" like you and I, but they aren't clergy either, if that makes sense. They have more greater access and exposure to the game than the rest of us, but there is no direct correlation between that and a greater understanding of what they are seeing or how valuable the various parts of it are.

                  I want reporters in Washington or Beirut or on Wall Street or Silicon Valley to tell me the facts of what is happening in places that I can't be at the moment. I do not look to them, however, to explain its significance or meaning to me. This is equally true with sports reporters. Murray Chass (to pick a name) doesn't know about more about baseball than I do, he just around a few thousand ballplayers more than I have.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                    As this is a discussion forum about baseball, a game that would not have been invented anywhere but in the United States, and as this is Christmas morning, a national holiday recognizing the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, son of the Creator, YHWH, whom the founders of this nation revered, if not worshipped, I don't think it's a stretch to say that without the birth of Jesus, we would not have the gift of baseball, either.

                    No matter what the Hall of Fame does or does not do, no matter how much aggravation may accompany its actions (or the response of some to them) from time-to-time, we are all united by our love for this wonderful sport, its rich history and our marvel at the amazing achievements of ballplayers great and small. While we often disagree with each other - and let's admit right now that this would be a boring subject, indeed, if we didn't - what we share between us is of greater importance than those divisions which may sometimes seem more insurmountable than they actually are.

                    So with all of this in mind, I want to take a moment to wish every single one of you - regardless of religion, creed or worldview - a very merry Christmas and a happy new year. May each of you receive joy and love and peace this day and may Santa Claus bring us all a nice four-man BBWAA class of inductees in the new year!

                    God bless us, everyone.
                    Kudos big man!
                    "Let me think it over, will ya Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some whitewalls, I'll talk to you later."
                    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                    Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                    Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                    Comment


                    • Herr28 with some knowledge and humor!

                      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                      I wonder if fans, broadcasters, sportswriters, or opposing teams noticed this extreme split during the 1979 season (referring to Fred Lynn)?
                      Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                      Oh, I seriously doubt it. Everyone was blind back then. Just a bunch of statistical barbarians running around clubbing each other and waiting for lightning to strike so they could have fire. Amazing that human beings could devise computers, send astronauts and cosmonauts to the moon and around the earth, build atomic weapons and power, but nobody could figure out home/away splits until this site came around. Now we can determine what really happened, and Fred Lynn can be tossed further down the memory hole.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                        Herr28 with some knowledge and humor!

                        Post of the day? That post was four years old!
                        They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                          Post of the day? That post was four years old!
                          I'm just slow sometimes, aches!
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • An astute observation...

                            Originally posted by willshad View Post
                            John's problem for me is not his worthiness in and of itself, but the fact that there are so many pitchers from that generation already enshrined. How many 'greats' could there possibly be at a given time, before we raise the bar for what greatness is? Putting in guys like John, Kaat, Reuschel, Tanana, Tiant, Koosman etc wouldn't necessarily lower the standards, but would definitely make me question how one era could produce so many 'all time greats', even moreso than it already does.

                            We already have Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Ryan, Niekro, Blyleven, Gibson, Perry, Sutton, Eckersley, Hunter, and Jenkins, not to mention relievers Fingers, Gossage, and Sutter. Isn't that enough? I don't like to get into 'third and fourth tier' type of guys. Who comes after that? Vida Blue? Mickey Lolich? Wilbur Wood? Ron Guidry?
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SWCBaseball View Post

                              I cannot say for sure but I have several theories.

                              1. Today's scorers have different opinions about what an average or median fielder should be able to do. For each play what are they measuring that individuals play against. Would the normal or average fielder have been able to make the play cleanly.

                              2. Are they measuring the fielder against what they have come to expect that individual to do. So if he is a poor fielder to begin with and is expected to be a poor infielder, then they award hits instead of errors because they don't expect him to field it cleanly.

                              3. There may be some subtle laziness or distractions in scoring so if a scorer misses a play, it is easier for him to call it a hit instead of an error.

                              4. I think some scorers may not know the difference between poor, routine, and extraordinary.

                              5. Record streaking - when players regardless of the type of record-breaking streak that may be occurring, whether an offensive player is in the middle of a hitting streak or a defensive player is in a record-breaking fielding streak, I think some plays are awarded simply to continue the streaks by not properly charging an obvious errors. The Major Leagues endorse record breaking events because it draws more media attention which in turn draws interest from the public.

                              6. I think since the late 1980's into the 1990's and so forth, there have been a lot of balls that should have been caught in the outfield deflecting off of gloves that the scorer has ruled as doubles, triples, inside-the-park home runs that actually should have been ruled as 2-, 3-, and 4-base errors. I am really talking about routine plays.

                              7. There have been a lot of balls that should have been caught in foul territory bouncing out of the pockets of gloves that thirty and forty years ago were charged as errors because it extending the turn at bat and the inning but now are called only strikes.

                              For me, when I am scoring games, I score each play with the following mentality: Any routine misplay that causes the extension of a turn at-bat, extension of an inning, and extension of the game, is an ERROR. One exception of that rule when I was growing up was the rule that Double-Plays cannot be assumed and an error is only charged in a misplay during the act of the play if the runner takes an additional base. Example: Runner on first, routine grounder to short, toss to 2nd for first out, second basemen relays throw to first as wild. If the batter stops at first, no error but should the batter reach second or beyond on that throw, then an error would be assessed for the additional advancement.

                              Not charging errors, not only makes the fielders statistically look better than they are but also makes the hitters look better than they are.

                              Another example of a play that should be an error that is not called is when an outfielder arrives on the warning track and positions himself to catch a high fly ball that then bouncing out of his glove and over the wall is scored in today's game as a home run but should not be. Once the fielder is set before the catch, and then misplays the ball, it is an error, not a home run. Today's Major League games are being scored like they were in Little League or Khoury League games by parents who only scored hits and runs.

                              Those are my thoughts and opinions but I am not an official scorer in the Major Leagues.
                              Amazing and true.
                              "Let me think it over, will ya Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some whitewalls, I'll talk to you later."
                              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                              Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                                I want to address this before it gets too far into the past, especialling seeing how we are past this round already.

                                Did Spahn pitched a lot less against the Dodgers during these years (1954-57)? Yes, most definitely looks like it, by a huge margin!
                                (I want to address these specific years here because, 1. they were mentioned specifically, and 2. during much of the rest of his career, his volume against the Dodgers wasn't necessarily so unreasonably low as to make a point of it.)

                                But back to 54-57, yes, Spahn pitched noticably less against the Dodgers. And yes, I can see why someone would review that situation and lower their ranking of him.
                                But here's the thing... it's not specifically a Warren Spahn phenomenon.
                                Hell, it's not even a Milwaukee Braves issue.
                                It was the whole damn National League!
                                Here's the big picture, from 1954-1957, the entire National League was avoiding using their left-handed pitchers against the Dodgers. Period. It was the strategy at the time. Spahn was not held back against the Dodgers because HE wanted to be held back; Spahn was not held back against the Dodgers because HE specifically pitched badly against them (although that was one factor). Spahn was held back because he was a lefty in the National League. That's really the big picture. His specific volume numbers are in large part a symptom of the NL culture at the time. How much one holds that agianst Spahn is up to the individual.

                                In an 8 team league, a player has the opportunity to face 7 other teams. An average player would expect to face each team somewhere around 14% of the time. With pitchers, there will be some variants, such as rotation schedule, season sschedule, injury/sick/rest, lefty/righty match-ups, but overall you would expect a pitchers to face each team somewhere in the ballpark of 14%, certainly somewhere in the double-digits %. I would think anything less that double-digits % starts to get questionable.

                                So I wanted to look at all left-handed picthers in the NL from 1954-57 who did not play for the Dodgers, so I could visualize this strategy of not using lefties against the Dodgers. I subtracted all Dodger time from any pitcher might have also pitchered for the Dodgers. I looked at all the pitchers who started at least 20 games (so as to account for pitchers who played a relatively full season in at least one of those years). I also looked at all the pitchers with at least 50 IP (as as to account for relievers who played a relatively full season in at least one of those years).

                                What I found was that, even though Spahn consistently ranked one of the lowest, he absolutely was not alone. Not to take him off the hook, but he was in good (or bad, I guess) company all around. What I found was, with one or two exceptions (and they do seem to have been exceptions), left-handers as a whole simply were not allowed to pitch against the Dodgers, much less Ebbets Field.

                                __________________________________________________ ____________________________

                                These are percentages of how often LH pitchers pitched against the Dodgers from 54-57 :

                                % of LH Starts vs. Dodgers, 1954-1957 (20+ Starts)
                                12.8% = 5/39 – Jim Davis
                                8.8% = 12/137 – Johnny Antonelli
                                8.3% = 3/36 – Luis Arroyo
                                5.9% = 2/34 – Don Gross
                                5.0% = 6/121 – Harvey Haddix
                                4.5% = 1/22 – Fred Baczewski
                                4.5% = 5/111 – Curt Simmons
                                3.7% = 2/54 – Vinegar Bend Mizell
                                3.7% = 4/107 – Joe Nuxhall
                                3.3% = 2/60 – Paul Minner
                                2.6% = 1/39 – Don Liddle
                                0.7% = 1/136 – Warren Spahn
                                0.0% = 0/20 – Jackie Collum
                                0.0% = 0/27 – Howie Pollet
                                0.0% = 0/41 – Chet Nichols
                                0.0% = 0/51 – Dick Littlefield


                                % of LH IP vs. Dodgers, 1954-1957 (50+ IP)
                                19.9% = 11.2/58.2 – Seth Moreland
                                12.9% = 52.1/406.1 – Jim Davis
                                10.7% = 15.1/143.1 – Harry Perkowski
                                8.6% = 20.2/240 – Paul LaPalme
                                7.7% = 24.2/318.1 – Luis Arroyo
                                7.5% = 72.1/964.2 – Johnny Antonelli
                                7.2% = 49.5/686.2 – Harvey Haddix
                                6.6% = 18.2/283.2 – Jackie Collum
                                6.5% = 5.1/82.1 – Ron Mroszinski
                                6.1% = 7.2/126 – Joe Margoneri
                                6.0% = 28/470 – Dick Littlefield
                                5.9% = 5/84.1 – Al Brazle
                                5.5% = 5.1/96.2 – Lino Donoso
                                5.3% = 15/285 – Don Gross
                                4.8% = 6/131 – Fred Baczewski
                                4.7% = 37.1/793 – Curt Simmons
                                4.4% = 35/798.2 – Joe Nuxhall
                                4.3% = 3/70.1 – Royce Lint
                                4.2% = 2.1/56 – Fred Waters
                                4.2% = 17.2/422.2 – Paul Minner
                                3.7% = 13.1/358 – Vinegar Bend Mizell
                                3.2% = 7.2/236.1 – Windy McCall
                                2.9% = 8.2/299 – Don Liddle
                                2.5% = 2/81.1 – Mike McCormick
                                1.4% = 3.2/270.1 – Chet Nichols
                                1.3% = 2.2/212.2 – Howie Pollet
                                0.6% = 2.1/160.2 – Taylor Philips
                                0.3% = 3.2/1081.1 – Warren Spahn
                                0.0% = 0/64.2 – Bob Smith
                                0.0% = 0/99.1 – Juan Pizarro


                                __________________________________________________ ________________

                                These are road percentages of how often LH pitchers pitched at Ebbets Field from 54-57 (compared to Road numbers) :

                                % of LH Road Starts at Ebbets, 1954-1957 (15+ Road Starts)
                                23.5% = 4/17 – Jim Davis
                                11.8% = 2/17 – Luis Arroyo
                                7.4% = 2/27 – Vinegar Bend Mizell
                                6.3% = 1/16 – Don Gross
                                5.9% = 3/51 – Joe Nuxhall
                                4.8% = 1/21 – Don Liddle
                                4.6% = 3/65 – Johnny Antonelli
                                3.5% = 2/57 – Harvey Haddix
                                1.9% = 1/52 – Curt Simmons
                                0.0% = 0/20 – Chet Nichols
                                0.0% = 0/25 – Dick Littlefield
                                0.0% = 0/29 – Paul Minner
                                0.0% = 0/68 – Warren Spahn


                                % of LH Road IP at Ebbets, 1954-1957 (25+ Road IP)
                                16.6% = 31.1/188.1 – Jim Davis
                                8.4% = 3/35.2 – Al Brazle
                                7.4% = 9.1/26.2 – Paul LaPalme
                                7.3% = 2.2/36.2 – Ron Mroszinski
                                7.0% = 28/398.2 – Joe Nuxhall
                                6.6% = 9/137 – Jackie Collum
                                5.5% = 7.1/32.2 – Don Gross
                                5.5% = 12.2/228.2 – Luis Arroyo
                                4.8% = 7.2/159 – Don Liddle
                                4.6% = 7/152.2 – Vinegar Bend Mizell
                                4.4% = 2.1/53.1 – Joe Margoneri
                                4.4% = 10/229.1 – Dick Littlefield
                                4.4% = 17.1/397.2 – Harvey Haddix
                                4.3% = 18.5/427 – Johnny Antonelli
                                3.9% = 2.1/59.1 – Harry Perkowski
                                3.5% = 2/57.1 – Lino Donoso
                                3.5% = 2.1/66.1 – Taylor Philips
                                3.4% = 1/29 – Royce Lint
                                2.5% = 4.1/76.1 – Fred Baczewski
                                1.4% = 2/144 – Windy McCall
                                1.2% = 4.2/369.2 – Curt Simmons
                                1.0% = 1.1/127.1 – Chet Nichols
                                0.0% = 0/25.2 – Fred Waters
                                0.0% = 0/31.2 – Seth Moreland
                                0.0% = 0/36.1 – Bob Smith
                                0.0% = 0/46.1 – Mike McCormick
                                0.0% = 0/55.2 – Warren Spahn
                                0.0% = 0/60 – Juan Pizarro
                                0.0% = 0/84 – Howie Pollet
                                0.0% = 0/182.1 – Paul Minner

                                ____________________________________________

                                For whatever reason, Jim Davis was the only LH pitcher to consistenly pitch against the Dodgers at any venue. Congrats to him!
                                Coincidentally, his career ran exactly from 1954-1957, the same years I am reviewing.


                                Bravo sir!
                                "Let me think it over, will ya Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some whitewalls, I'll talk to you later."
                                Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                                Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                                Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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