Bill James supporting JOE PATERNO?

[Blackout]

this is DISGUSTING

bill james is supporting Joe Pa, who accoring to the Freeh report turned his cheeck towards the Sandusky rapes from 1998 to 2011

kudos to the Red Sox for telling him to shut up about it but i will always look at Bill James as a sick man now.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Yeah thats pretty strange he would say that. Everybody always talks about the sick world we live in today but thats pretty damn sick for coaches to shower with kids 40 years ago.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Yeah thats pretty strange he would say that. Everybody always talks about the sick world we live in today but thats pretty damn sick for coaches to shower with kids 40 years ago.

Huh? Oh, I get it, this is "Between Innings," a place for baseball frivolities.

This was a peripheral part of the Paterno discussion, right? The interviewer asked James if he had any personal experience of man-boy showering, and he said it was commonplace 40 years back.

Well, yeah, at my YMCA men and boys swam together nude, at my summer camp they showered together. It was no big deal. (These were large, open, locker room type showers. Maybe you are thinking of something else.) I live in Japan. I along with other men bathe together with boys in the public baths and hot springs even now. Sometimes a father will bathe with his baby daughter, and it's no big deal. I've been to hot springs where there's completely mixed bathing of all ages. (Most of us are in our 60s or up, however, and at my favorite hot spring we cover ourselves with thermal mud.)

In all these cases, the culture's sexual mores are way more conservative than ours, so the reason no one objects is because sexual predation in such circumstances is just way off their radar, not because they are sick.

Not to say that predatory pedophiles don't go to the public baths or never coached kids' teams 40 years ago. But that's not the same as saying that 40 years men showered with boys because they were sick. I'm sorry, but that's spoken out of ignorance.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

To each their own, I find it weird you dont , I'll leave it at that.

[Jackaroo Dave]

To each their own, I find it weird you dont , I'll leave it at that.

Well, it's not just that I don't find it weird; almost no one found it weird--and the ones who found it weird were the ones who raised people's eyebrows. Different times, different customs.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Well, it's not just that I don't find it weird; almost no one found it weird--and the ones who found it weird were the ones who raised people's eyebrows. Different times, different customs.

I'm not sure how swimming naked with kids would be considered normal even back then. I grew up in the 70's and 80's and I never saw anything like that at YMCA's. I commend the ones who found that strange because maybe they were the ones who had it stopped when I grew up.

I see what your saying but lets face it Bill James made a pretty stupid comment in the wake of tragedy.

[Jackaroo Dave]

I'm not sure how swimming naked with kids would be considered normal even back then. I grew up in the 70's and 80's and I never saw anything like that at YMCA's. I commend the ones who found that strange because maybe they were the ones who had it stopped when I grew up.

I see what your saying but lets face it Bill James made a pretty stupid comment in the wake of tragedy.

It was considered normal because it was the norm. Most of the time we swam and bathed nude separately from the men, and as far as I know, people soon got over any discomfort. If there was an older guy swimming laps or something, no one freaked out.

I want to reiterate, it was a public place--showers, pool, and locker room, with people coming and going constantly. A lot of nudity, but as far as I know, no sex. The experiences my friends and I had of being approached by predatory men all took place elsewhere--school after classes, parks. (This was in a very macho industrial city in the 1950s, utterly homophobic. It would have been very poor judgment to make a pass at someone in the Y shower.)

The stupid comment . . . That's about inter-generational showering 40 years ago? The interviewer asked him if he'd had any such experience--why I don't know--and that was his reply. It wasn't as if he said, "What's the big deal about Sandusky? When I was a kid we showered with men." Although that is the impression that seems to be coming across.

Stupid? I don't know, maybe arrogant in the disdain of an intelligent person for the mob's torches and pitchforks, certainly risky. But if he's read the report, and his honest reaction is that they threw Paterno to the wolves, shouldn't he say so? Would it be more admirable for him to keep his head down?

(I can see the thread now, "Why does Baseball Fever allow Jackaroo Dave to defend James's defense of Paterno's enabling of Sandusky?" I just really don't think the subject was opened fairly or accurately in either thread. Don't the kids deserve everyone's best effort to hew scrupulously to the truth?)

[Dude Paskert]

Until recently, I would end up showering at my local Y with little boys AND little girls...men (including me) would bring their daughters under 5 into the shower with them. It was a little awkward, but we wanted to swim, and the pools had incredible concentrations of chlorine, so we really needed to rinse off. Now, they have added family showers with privacy, but our other health club still uses the communal approach with just men's and women's showers and small children of either sex allowed in either one.
As I mentioned in the other thread, it is the responsibility of all people to protect children from rape, and I think the Bosox need to get rid of James...despite his baseball acumen.

[ian2813]

Well, yeah, at my YMCA men and boys swam together nude, at my summer camp they showered together. It was no big deal. (These were large, open, locker room type showers. Maybe you are thinking of something else.)

My mother told me that back in the old days boys were required to go nude when they did swimming in P.E. class (apparently this wasn't the case for girls). She said that her two brothers (both born in the mid-'50s) just missed having to go nude themselves. A rule like that would be unthinkable today, but 40-50 years ago people were apparently OK with it.

I live in Japan. I along with other men bathe together with boys in the public baths and hot springs even now. Sometimes a father will bathe with his baby daughter, and it's no big deal. I've been to hot springs where there's completely mixed bathing of all ages. (Most of us are in our 60s or up, however, and at my favorite hot spring we cover ourselves with thermal mud.)

In all these cases, the culture's sexual mores are way more conservative than ours, so the reason no one objects is because sexual predation in such circumstances is just way off their radar, not because they are sick.

I hear you. I live in Korea, and they have public bathhouses here too. I've never visited one, as it's not really my thing, but I know plenty of people who have. One woman I know said she saw one of her students at the jjimjilbang, and apparently the girl just came up to her and said hello without any feelings of weirdness. It sounds unusual to us Westerners, but that's just how the culture is.

I'm guessing this thread won't last very long, but as long as it's still open I just wanted Jackaroo Dave to know that I understand where he's coming from.

[Captain Cold Nose]

James was not advocating Paterno's or Sandusky's actions. He did, however, saiy this was more media driven than anthing else. Sure, maybe showering/swimming nude was common all those years ago, but what happened at Penn State was a bit different. To point out unrelated normalcy of years ago is flippant and pretty cold, actually, in light of the actual tragic events that went on, regardless of what the media says.

[ipitch]

My mother told me that back in the old days boys were required to go nude when they did swimming in P.E. class (apparently this wasn't the case for girls). She said that her two brothers (both born in the mid-'50s) just missed having to go nude themselves. A rule like that would be unthinkable today, but 40-50 years ago people were apparently OK with it.

At my high school, boys had to swim nude until the mid 1980s.

[Dude Paskert]

James was not advocating Paterno's or Sandusky's actions. He did, however, saiy this was more media driven than anthing else. Sure, maybe showering/swimming nude was common all those years ago, but what happened at Penn State was a bit different. To point out unrelated normalcy of years ago is flippant and pretty cold, actually, in light of the actual tragic events that went on, regardless of what the media says.

The Baseball Abstract would usually have a few essays per year that started off by saying that James was asked some question on the radio, he got all bamboozled trying to answer it, made a terrible argument, and he was going to fix the situation in the essay. I don't think he's especially quick on his feet in a live interview situation, plus he loves to be contrarian...I suspect that he didn't really express himself well in this situation and regrets some of his comments.
Still, the Red Sox have their own sicko clubhouse man situation that just won't go away and need to distance themselves from this fire. Having somebody publicly associated with the team saying stuff like this is terrible for them...I suspect his public role with the team will end soon, but there's no reason why he can't still act as an analyst for them after that.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The Baseball Abstract would usually have a few essays per year that started off by saying that James was asked some question on the radio, he got all bamboozled trying to answer it, made a terrible argument, and he was going to fix the situation in the essay. I don't think he's especially quick on his feet in a live interview situation, plus he loves to be contrarian...I suspect that he didn't really express himself well in this situation and regrets some of his comments.
Still, the Red Sox have their own sicko clubhouse man situation that just won't go away and need to distance themselves from this fire. Having somebody publicly associated with the team saying stuff like this is terrible for them...I suspect his public role with the team will end soon, but there's no reason why he can't still act as an analyst for them after that.

ESPN did a show on Pete Rose a few ears ago, and James did not come off well. Was this an example of that? Very possible.

You can't just squelch each and every instance of controversial speech or poor interview results. Is this truly terrible for the Red Sox? It's not great but nothing he said should cause him to lose his job, IMO.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

James was not advocating Paterno's or Sandusky's actions. He did, however, saiy this was more media driven than anthing else.

Of course it's media driven.

What Sandusky did is a horrible thing, of course. And he will be punished.

But the outcry goes way beyond that. They're using "Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!??" (one of the most dangerous phrases in the world, BTW) as an excuse to destroy Penn State in general. People want to have their egos fed by demonstrating how much they're THINKING OF THE CHILDREN!!! and so they figure that anything they can do to destroy Penn State can only be a good thing.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

It was considered normal because it was the norm. Most of the time we swam and bathed nude separately from the men, and as far as I know, people soon got over any discomfort. If there was an older guy swimming laps or something, no one freaked out.

I want to reiterate, it was a public place--showers, pool, and locker room, with people coming and going constantly. A lot of nudity, but as far as I know, no sex. The experiences my friends and I had of being approached by predatory men all took place elsewhere--school after classes, parks. (This was in a very macho industrial city in the 1950s, utterly homophobic. It would have been very poor judgment to make a pass at someone in the Y shower.)

The stupid comment . . . That's about inter-generational showering 40 years ago? The interviewer asked him if he'd had any such experience--why I don't know--and that was his reply. It wasn't as if he said, "What's the big deal about Sandusky? When I was a kid we showered with men." Although that is the impression that seems to be coming across.

Stupid? I don't know, maybe arrogant in the disdain of an intelligent person for the mob's torches and pitchforks, certainly risky. But if he's read the report, and his honest reaction is that they threw Paterno to the wolves, shouldn't he say so? Would it be more admirable for him to keep his head down?

(I can see the thread now, "Why does Baseball Fever allow Jackaroo Dave to defend James's defense of Paterno's enabling of Sandusky?" I just really don't think the subject was opened fairly or accurately in either thread. Don't the kids deserve everyone's best effort to hew scrupulously to the truth?)

After reading these posts, I do feel I was being ignorant. I do admit I do find it strange men swam nude in pools but that seems to be the norm of the times.

The Bill James part that you wrote does change my mind on him. Your right he was being honest and whether anyone wants to stand up and say he's right for saying what he did does take alot of guts.