What If? (Barry Bonds)

[fenrir]

Truth be told, I dislike guys like Clemens and Sosa more than Bonds, both of which have always come across to me as incredibly phony. In Clemens case, it was annoying to see ESPN fawn over him every time there was doubt about whether or not he was going to retire. Not to mention that Clemens threw his own wife under the bus. Doesn't get any worse then that, IMO.

Bonds made his own bed by acting like a prick, and he knows that. But I'll give him credit for at least being upfront about it compared to someone like Sosa who hid behind a phony smile, when in reality he was a wife assaulting prick.

[Steven Gallanter]

Oh really, what is this, the old "ghetto defense' we see in criminal trials....................hey look at the neighborhood I'm living in.........my surroundings....I'm more like a victim, cut me some slack.
Come on, we keep hearing about others using.

Your missing the point, what about those not using having to compete with users.

Using your logic, everyone should be using, how come not all use, how is it fair to them.

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

Thats something that can't be measured Steve.
I would think that it has different effects on different athletes.
Whats the difference what the level of advantage the user has over the non user.
We know what the intent is, to boost performance, some benefit more than others.
A clean Barry is better than most users.

Unfortunate, the choice to use, no matter where one stands on athletes that use, using puts doubt in some of their performance.
Had Barry not used, even with lower numbers he would probably rank higher on the list of all time greats.
Same with Roger, he may have won the court battle, more difficult to prove he used.
He and Barry were great players long before using, assuming they were not users early in career, I doubt that.

[ol' aches and pains]

...Bonds made his own bed by acting like a prick, and he knows that...

I don't think it's an act.

[StanTheMan]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

The number of historic home run seasons staining the PED era suggests otherwise to me. PED users who were already good hitters received a tremendous boost in my opinion. Take the 50 HR threshold for example. I dont have the numbers in frot of me, but that mark was surpassed more times in about 7 years of rampant PED use than in the previous SEVENTY.

Yet it stopped - suddenly. Why?

More teams/players, watered down pitching? Nope, we have that now and 50 is now rare
Smaller ballparks then? Nope, playing in many of the same parks now with some teams in more homer friendly parks at this point.
Strategy change? Small ball trend now vs then? No.
More knowledgeable phsyical fitness medical staff? No, we have that now, 50 is rare.

Although PED's weren't the only reason, they certainly stand out as the biggest reason for the most ridiculous HR explosion the game has ever seen. These men outperformed all players from the previous 70 years, COMBINED.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

The number of historic home run seasons staining the PED era suggests otherwise to me. PED users who were already good hitters received a tremendous boost in my opinion. Take the 50 HR threshold for example. I dont have the numbers in frot of me, but that mark was surpassed more times in about 7 years of rampant PED use than in the previous SEVENTY.

Yet it stopped - suddenly. Why?

More teams/players, watered down pitching? Nope, we have that now and 50 is now rare
Smaller ballparks then? Nope, playing in many of the same parks now with some teams in more homer friendly parks at this point.
Strategy change? Small ball trend now vs then? No.
More knowledgeable phsyical fitness medical staff? No, we have that now, 50 is rare.

Although PED's weren't the only reason, they certainly stand out as the biggest reason for the most ridiculous HR explosion the game has ever seen. These men outperformed all players from the previous 70 years, COMBINED.

What I do try to get across to some others.
Although I do look down on PED use, never did I say it was the only reason for the explosion in home runs, by totals or home run frequency.
But just common sense, it did play a part, if your bigger and stronger, on average the result could mean more long balls hit.

Now what has to be considered, the pitching, the parks, pitching strategy, suspect ball, some expansion in the 1990's.......all are available to all hitters. But PED use, obviously only the users can gain an advantage.

[ol' aches and pains]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

Well, think what you like, but the last player to hit 60 home runs in a season without PEDs was Roger Maris, so I beg to differ.

[StanTheMan]

Sometimes McGwire's 70, Sosa's 66 then 63 and Bonds' 73 dont tell enough of the story. After all, they are only three men, and known users who obviously flourished while on various PED's. Here are the raw numbers and names illustrating my point from earlier.

Throughout 75 seasons, beginning with Ruth in 1920 - the 50 HR Club included just 10 men. From 1995 to 2002, We saw NINETEEN 50+ Homer seasons. Nineteen in seven years. The overwhelming majority of those 19 50+ seasons were put up by known users. It happened, and in hindsight, it sucks.

Was it the Ballparks? Pitching and expansion? Strategy? The ball? We have all that NOW, yet the 50 HR Club is now adding members at a pace on par with the first 75 seasons I mentioned.

In the last 10 seasons (2003 to 2012) only 6 men have done it. The parks today are very similar, if not the exact same parks that the PED users played in, pitching is no more watered down now that it was in the recent past, if anything it might be at a slightly higher level as foreign pitchers are more common now than in the PED era, but is that the main reason six of the last ten seasons resulted in zero players reach 50? When we just completed a stretch of 19 in 7? I'll never buy that or any other reason other than PED use was out of control while 50 was surpassed 19 times during what amounts to a blink of an eye relative to the long, storied history of the big fly. PED's really do help, and they help hitters more than pitchers, or at least there are so many pitchers that hitters were going to have the advantage big time whether half the pichers used, or 30% or 15%.

Another perspective... Take out A-Rods 54 in 2007, and in the most recent 10 seasons players put up 50+ HR seasons at the same rate as did Mays, Mantle and Maris from 1955 to 1965. This era adds in an entire different set of variables (parks, diversity, pitching, perhaps the ball, etc) and is not intended to compare the two era's -- merely offer some perspective on 50+ HR frequency.

[DownUnderDodger]

I don't like him because I was at AT&T Park hoping he would hit the record and he did not hit a HR that night!! :hyper:
Really I didn't dislike him that much because he was doing what a lot of others were doing at the time.

[White Knight]

Sometimes McGwire's 70, Sosa's 66 then 63 and Bonds' 73 dont tell enough of the story. After all, they are only three men, and known users who obviously flourished while on various PED's. Here are the raw numbers and names illustrating my point from earlier.

Throughout 75 seasons, beginning with Ruth in 1920 - the 50 HR Club included just 10 men. From 1995 to 2002, We saw NINETEEN 50+ Homer seasons. Nineteen in seven years. The overwhelming majority of those 19 50+ seasons were put up by known users. It happened, and in hindsight, it sucks.

Was it the Ballparks? Pitching and expansion? Strategy? The ball? We have all that NOW, yet the 50 HR Club is now adding members at a pace on par with the first 75 seasons I mentioned.

In the last 10 seasons (2003 to 2012) only 6 men have done it. The parks today are very similar, if not the exact same parks that the PED users played in, pitching is no more watered down now that it was in the recent past, if anything it might be at a slightly higher level as foreign pitchers are more common now than in the PED era, but is that the main reason six of the last ten seasons resulted in zero players reach 50? When we just completed a stretch of 19 in 7? I'll never buy that or any other reason other than PED use was out of control while 50 was surpassed 19 times during what amounts to a blink of an eye relative to the long, storied history of the big fly. PED's really do help, and they help hitters more than pitchers, or at least there are so many pitchers that hitters were going to have the advantage big time whether half the pichers used, or 30% or 15%.

Another perspective... Take out A-Rods 54 in 2007, and in the most recent 10 seasons players put up 50+ HR seasons at the same rate as did Mays, Mantle and Maris from 1955 to 1965. This era adds in an entire different set of variables (parks, diversity, pitching, perhaps the ball, etc) and is not intended to compare the two era's -- merely offer some perspective on 50+ HR frequency.

How is 6 in the last 10 years on par with 10 over 75 seasons? That would be about 46 averaged over 75 years.

[drstrangelove]

Having been both a father (2 boys) and a boy (years ago), I always marvel that the standards my parents had for me as a ten year old and me for my children when they were ten are apparently miles above the standards that adults now have for Barry Bonds when he was 35.

Peer pressure....apparently that is something we teach our 10 year olds to resist, but allow 35 year olds to succumb to
Cheating.....Are you 10? Stop it! Are you 35, ok, no problem.
Lying....only for people who are adults. You kids should know better!
Punishment....Penalties, like Trix, are for kids.

Poor wistful, angelic Barry Bonds, forced to take drugs against his will, and lie and cheat against his will, and now standing before us with tearful eyes. Treat him like an adult and let him go. He can't be expected to have the wisdom and maturity of a child.