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  • Andruw Jones best ever?

    As a defensive CF? Often he's compared to other greats such as Willie Mays, Curt Flood, etc.. but was he the best ever?

    Defensive Win Shares at least thinks so. Here are the best defensive seasons by a CF after WWI according to defensive Win Shares:

    player year team FieldWS

    Dwayne Murphy 1980 OAK 10.0
    Marquis Grissom 1993 MON 10.0
    Andruw Jones 1999 ATL 9.8
    Andruw Jones 1998 ATL 9.5
    Curt Flood 1962 SLN 9.2
    Doc Cramer 1936 BOS 9.0
    Andruw Jones 2002 ATL 8.9
    Andruw Jones 2000 ATL 8.9
    Willie Mays 1954 NY1 8.9
    Taylor Douthit 1928 SLN 8.7
    Curt Flood 1964 SLN 8.7
    Mike Kreevich 1940 CHA 8.7
    Dom DiMaggio 1942 BOS 8.6
    Curt Flood 1966 SLN 8.3
    Andruw Jones 2001 ATL 8.3
    Darin Erstad 2002 ANA 8.2
    Paul Blair 1969 BAL 8.1
    Paul Blair 1969 BAL 8.1
    Willie Mays 1965 SFN 8.1

    4 out of the top 10 best defensive seasons ever by a CF belong to Andruw.

    I wonder if we'll ever see as good of a fielder in the outfield as the younger Andruw Jones was.

    And our old friend, Marquis Grissom, wasn't too shabby either, apparently. I guess those gold gloves that he received were well deserved.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dontworry
    As a defensive CF? Often he's compared to other greats such as Willie Mays, Curt Flood, etc.. but was he the best ever?

    Defensive Win Shares at least thinks so. Here are the best defensive seasons by a CF after WWI according to defensive Win Shares:

    player year team FieldWS

    Dwayne Murphy 1980 OAK 10.0
    I didn't even think he was as good as Wilson that year, have to check again

    <Marquis Grissom 1993 MON 10.0>

    Was he as good as Dykstra?

    <Curt Flood 1962 SLN 9.2>

    Good as Mays?

    <Doc Cramer 1936 BOS 9.0>

    Good as West?

    <Willie Mays 1954 NY1 8.9>

    Good as Ashburn?

    <Curt Flood 1964 SLN 8.7>

    Good as WDavis?

    <Mike Kreevich 1940 CHA 8.7>

    I don't even have him top3 (comparing to his own OF position)

    <Willie Mays 1965 SFN 8.1>

    Not sure he's top3 (comparing to his own OF position)

    <4 out of the top 10 best defensive seasons ever by a CF belong to Andruw.

    I wonder if we'll ever see as good of a fielder in the outfield as the younger Andruw Jones was.>

    Good question, but that doesn't mean his CAREER was as good as Mays or Speaker's yet

    <And our old friend, Marquis Grissom, wasn't too shabby either, apparently. I guess those gold gloves that he received were well deserved.>

    Excellent underrated choice
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #3
      does anybody know how defensive win shares are calculated? The only metrics I really put much stock into are UZR and Gassko's RAA. Just looking at this year's list, there seem to be some pretty wacky rankings. It ranks Manny ahead of Matsui, when most advanced metrics indicate Manny was historically bad in the field this year (possibly -40 runs bad). Posada 9th in the AL is pretty ridiculous, and there are a couple of others as well.

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      • #4
        Dontworry:

        If you want a serious answer to that question, I'll have to move this to the History section.

        Last I've heard, Messrs Cobb, Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio and Speaker were amongst the best center fielders ever.
        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mattingly
          Dontworry:

          If you want a serious answer to that question, I'll have to move this to the History section.

          Last I've heard, Messrs Cobb, Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio and Speaker were amongst the best center fielders ever.
          I think he said defensive CF, and if you still want those guys, Cobb, Mantle and JDiMaggio are overrated
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
            I think he said defensive CF, and if you still want those guys, Cobb, Mantle and JDiMaggio are overrated
            *sits with deer-in-headlights look as Yankee legends are called overrated*

            *ponders evil way of slipping rmb out the secret exit w/o anybody noticing*

            I think that Bill Burgess would be the best person to know about that. In the Ty Cobb general thread, he'd answered about CFers defensively. I think he had Mays ahead of Cobb defensively, and I believe that Speaker was among the top 2 or 3. That comment must've been removed for some reason.
            Last edited by Mattingly; 01-23-2006, 11:29 AM.
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mattingly
              *sits with deer-in-headlights look as Yankee legends are called overrated*

              *ponders evil way of slipping rmb out the secret exit w/o anybody noticing*
              As I've told you before, Matt. Watch your back, especially when you're too busy slipping someone out a secret exit after referring to Cobb as a Yankee legend.
              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
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              • #8
                And he can hit

                I don't dig too deep in stats so I depend on keen observation to rate players. There have been some remarkable CF ballplayers that I have seen, and in spite of Jones playing for the detestable Braves, he ranks up there among the best defensively in my estimation. Much like Dom DiMaggio, he is so fluid and smooth, he just makes it look too darn easy to track down those curling, hard shots in the gaps. Baseball should be played with both the bat and the glove, not to mention the arm, and Andruw excels in all these facets. Good defense starts up the middle, so I rank Robin Yount higher than most because of his unequalled ability to have made the transition from AS SS to AS CF. Say Hey Willie is known for "The Catch," when it should really have been touted as the catch and throw! The way he spun and threw a strike back to infield saved a run, and cemented his reputation as a premier fielder, as well as a slugger. Curt Flood may be the best defensive centerfielder to ever play the game; he is certainly the best I ever saw, (I'm too young to have seen Tristram Speaker), but he will likely be remembered more for his defiant battles to rid the game of the reserve clause. He wasn't too shabby with the stick, either.
                Last edited by trosmok; 03-07-2006, 12:56 PM.
                Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                  As I've told you before, Matt. Watch your back, especially when you're too busy slipping someone out a secret exit after referring to Cobb as a Yankee legend.
                  Whaddya expect from one of THEIR fans?
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                    As I've told you before, Matt. Watch your back, especially when you're too busy slipping someone out a secret exit after referring to Cobb as a Yankee legend.
                    Oh geez, I'm being double-teamed by my co-Mod and some nut from out in LF somewhere!

                    tros, please save me.
                    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mattingly
                      tros, please save me.
                      Tros, first ya gots ta ask yaself . . .
                      . . . is Mattingly worth saving?
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mattingly
                        Dontworry:

                        If you want a serious answer to that question, I'll have to move this to the History section.

                        Last I've heard, Messrs Cobb, Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio and Speaker were amongst the best center fielders ever.
                        You should leave this thread here, jones is a modern day player.

                        I also mentioned him being the best defensive CF ever, not allaround.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dontworry
                          You should leave this thread here, jones is a modern day player.

                          I also mentioned him being the best defensive CF ever, not allaround.
                          It can go both ways, as it attempts to put Jones in a historical context. But, since Jones is a current player, and the thread is set to put him in perspective, and not all CF defensively, I personally would not move it.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Are the Cubs eliminated mathematically, yet?

                            Originally posted by Mattingly
                            Oh geez, I'm being double-teamed by my co-Mod and some nut from out in LF somewhere!

                            tros, please save me.
                            Some folks are beyond help, but Donny Baseball ain't one of them. Worth saving? Hmmm, "I know what you're thinking. Did I fire six shots, or only five? Well, in the heat of the battle, I've lost track myself. But, seeing this is a .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun on earth, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky today? Well, do you....." Harry C.

                            Back on topic, though, I neglected to mention the only other CF future HOF player still active that is defensively in the same ballpark as Jones: Ken Griffey Jr. Hope he manages to stay healthy again in '06, so his career will finish on an up note, instead of the DL.
                            Last edited by trosmok; 01-23-2006, 12:56 PM.
                            Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by trosmok
                              Back on topic, though, I neglected to mention the only other CF future HOF player still active that is defensively in the same ballpark as Jones: Ken Griffey Jr.
                              That's only because you're limiting it to active future HOFers, and Edmonds may get there yet (probably not Beltran?). And Griffey is at the edge of Andruw's defensive ballpark.
                              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                              Comment

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