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Could the Angels invalidate Pujols' contract on the basis of fraud?

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  • Could the Angels invalidate Pujols' contract on the basis of fraud?

    Really interesting article at FG:

    https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-...albert-pujols/

    The idea is that if Albert is really two years older than he claims to be, the Angels were not getting the player they thought they were getting when he signed that contract back in 2012. They thought they were getting a player with a few great years left, which they were willing to pay for by supporting the later years when he would be in serious decline. But if he was 34, not 32, they would have had greatly reduced expectations of performance even in the first years.

    This is very unlikely to happen, of course. For one thing, despite a lot of speculation, no one has been able to prove that Pujols is older than he says he is. And even if he is, Scioscia's praise of Pujols as a valuable RBI machine makes it hard to claim that the team is disappointed by his performance. But as he continues to decline, with four more years including this one left, the problem of what to do with him will only worsen.
    Last edited by Stolensingle; 04-27-2018, 05:48 PM.

  • #2
    In my opinion, the Angels will get one more fair to good year out of him after this season. They might want to buy out his 2020 and 2021 seasons (if that's possible) due to declining performance. Pujols could creep past Willie Mays' total of 660 career home runs if he averages 24 home runs per year in 2018 and 2019.
    Last edited by philliesfiend55; 04-29-2018, 05:03 AM.

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    • #3
      "...one more fair to good year out of him after this season"

      ???

      He's already below replacement level.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by philliesfiend55 View Post
        In my opinion, the Angels will get one more fair to good year out of him after this season. They might want to buy out his 2020 and 2021 seasons (if that's possible) due to declining performance. Pujols could creep past Willie Mays' total of 660 career home runs if he averages 24 home runs per year in 2018 and 2019.
        I looked at the contract; sadly, it does not appear the Angels can buy him out. Worse still is the fact that Pujol's contract is heavily back-loaded. This hampers the Angel's ability to pay for better players until this albatross contract is up. No team in their right mind will trade for a player that has declined at the plate and is no longer an asset in the field. Money wasted on Hamilton and to an extent CJ Wilson did not help matters. What I found difficult to understand is that the Yankees had the exact same problem with A-Rod and one would figure that all of baseball would take heed to that kind of risk.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by morpheus1776 View Post

          What I found difficult to understand is that the Yankees had the exact same problem with A-Rod and one would figure that all of baseball would take heed to that kind of risk.
          ARod was still a pretty decent player when the Angels signed Pujols before the 2012 season. He was plagued with injuries, then the doping suspension, in his final years, but as late as 2015 he was still a well above average hitter.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post

            ARod was still a pretty decent player when the Angels signed Pujols before the 2012 season. He was plagued with injuries, then the doping suspension, in his final years, but as late as 2015 he was still a well above average hitter.
            The Angels signed Pujols to play for them in 2012 -after a decline year in St. Louis that honestly was difficult to foresee. Or at least one that was not expected to be a steep downward incline. In that same year, A-Rod was in his 9th season with the Yankees. Looking at A-Rod's numbers it is easy to see how diminished his skills had become. Yes, he was did play through injuries, but this should have served as a warning. I realize that hindsight is always 20/20. But even when the Angels signed Pujols to that huge contract, lay people like me could see it was a big mistake.

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            • #7
              Former MLB executive says Albert Pujols was lying about his age when he signed $240 million contract with Angels

              https://www.insider.com/albert-pujol...his-age-2021-3
              My top 10 players:

              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Ty Cobb
              4. Ted Williams
              5. Willie Mays
              6. Alex Rodriguez
              7. Hank Aaron
              8. Honus Wagner
              9. Lou Gehrig
              10. Mickey Mantle

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                Former MLB executive says Albert Pujols was lying about his age when he signed $240 million contract with Angels

                https://www.insider.com/albert-pujol...his-age-2021-3
                Kept reading, expecting some evidence beyond guilt-by-association and speculation due to career arc, but found nothing.

                I mean OF COURSE he could be older than his age...but this article was 100% worthless and offered nothing that people haven't already questioned.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                  Kept reading, expecting some evidence beyond guilt-by-association and speculation due to career arc, but found nothing.

                  I mean OF COURSE he could be older than his age...but this article was 100% worthless and offered nothing that people haven't already questioned.
                  I had the same reaction to the article. He says he "knows" Albert is older than he claims (without providing any evidence) and yet he made a push to sign him to a huge, long term deal despite "knowing" this? Doesn't make any sense.
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                    Kept reading, expecting some evidence beyond guilt-by-association and speculation due to career arc, but found nothing.

                    I mean OF COURSE he could be older than his age...but this article was 100% worthless and offered nothing that people haven't already questioned.
                    I agree 100% These baseless accusations and aspersions at Pujols, basically calling him a liar, are pathetic.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                      I agree 100% These baseless accusations and aspersions at Pujols, basically calling him a liar, are pathetic.
                      I mean I have my suspicions. We ALL have our suspicions - but I don't state something as fact if I don't actually know it to be a fact.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There have been Cases were Latin players were made younger by their agents to get a better contract. If you hit like an 18 year old but your pass says 16 that can turn some heads.

                        Most famous case is probably Roberto Hernandez (formerly known as Fausto Carmona)
                        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robe...arting_pitcher)

                        However for pujols there isn't really any evidence for that except maybe interpretation of the career arc.
                        I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dominik View Post
                          Most famous case is probably Roberto Hernandez (formerly known as Fausto Carmona)
                          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robe...arting_pitcher)
                          Miguel Tejada and Vladimir Guerrero, for example, are much more famous cases.
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            About 20 years ago, after Albert's superb ROY season, a friend attended a Cardinal Fantasy Camp in Jupiter, a 40th birthday present from his wife. (nice gift, huh!) Every evening, after a day of instruction and then a game between attendees, they had dinner and boozing with the various Cardinal greats serving as instructors. My friend was seated at a table with Whitey Herzog and they were talking about Pujols. Whitey, who had a few drinks in him, was discussing the age thing and called out to Red Schoendienst at a nearby table-"hey Red, Pujols is closer to 30 than he is 21, isn't he?" He said Red, still employed as a consultant by the Cards, just smiled, shook his head and put his hands up in a "I'm not saying anything" type of gesture.

                            It is hard to believe that the Angels would spend that much dough on a long term contract without thoroughly investigating all details about his age and health, but then again plenty of stupid mistakes have been made with signing athletes in every sport and will continue so.
                            It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 64Cards View Post
                              About 20 years ago, after Albert's superb ROY season, a friend attended a Cardinal Fantasy Camp in Jupiter, a 40th birthday present from his wife. (nice gift, huh!) Every evening, after a day of instruction and then a game between attendees, they had dinner and boozing with the various Cardinal greats serving as instructors. My friend was seated at a table with Whitey Herzog and they were talking about Pujols. Whitey, who had a few drinks in him, was discussing the age thing and called out to Red Schoendienst at a nearby table-"hey Red, Pujols is closer to 30 than he is 21, isn't he?" He said Red, still employed as a consultant by the Cards, just smiled, shook his head and put his hands up in a "I'm not saying anything" type of gesture.

                              It is hard to believe that the Angels would spend that much dough on a long term contract without thoroughly investigating all details about his age and health, but then again plenty of stupid mistakes have been made with signing athletes in every sport and will continue so.
                              By that math, Red was already what? 130 years old by then?
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                              Comment

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