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Mariners' Robinson Cano suspended 80 games by MLB

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Right. I have no problem giving Ortiz the benefit of the doubt if there are extenuating circumstances. I have a problem with the media 1. refusing the same courtesy to ANYONE else and 2. not only offering the BOTD to only Ortiz, but creating a 6-month hero-going-away bromance tour that very few all-time greats in the history of the game have gotten.

    Most people connected to PEDs in ANY way shape or form and with ANY level of clarity got the Kangaroo Court. Ortiz got parades and awards.

    The media always had a strange fascination with Ortiz. They were more skeptical on Bagwell's PED use than Ortiz, for goodness sakes.
    Bagwell is the big problem for me. With him it was all innuendo and it (very possibly) kept him out of the hall for a number of years.

    Part of the thing about Ortiz is that he was a big part of the 2004 Red Sox, he had some big hits in the ALCS at some big times, stuff that will always be remembered in baseball history. I think that is part of why he got the send off he did. I will also add that Jeter got a send off that was much bigger than his ability on the field. I'm not saying he was not a great player, but players in Boston and New York who are high profile are more likely to get that sort of treatment, rightly or wrongly. Had Ortiz stayed in Minnesota and put up the same numbers he would not have gotten this type of sendoff.

    I will also say that the way Ortiz played later in has career, while passing every drug test, does lend some credence to the idea that he was clean. Of course, he may NEVER have been clean, he might have found a way to cheat the tests, or he could have found another BALCO, neither would surprise me. If he WAS using in 2009 and quit I would not have expected such a strong late career.
    Last edited by dl4060; 05-22-2018, 10:34 AM.

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    • #32
      So here is my issues with Ortiz's "failed" test in 2003

      1) It was supposed to be kept confidential.
      2) The test results were simply supposed to be used to see if future testing was to be performed.
      3) The test results could not be used to suspend any player.
      4) We don't know know what banned substance was supposedly found in Ortiz's system.
      5) Commissioner Rob Manfred has stated that Ortiz's drug test may not have been reliable.

      On this "failed" test people adamantly assert that Ortiz is a "cheater". Really? I have no idea if Ortiz (or Bagwell) used PED's. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I simply don't know. And no one else either.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by dl4060 View Post

        Bagwell is the big problem for me. With him it was all innuendo and it (very possibly) kept him out of the hall for a number of years.

        Part of the thing about Ortiz is that he was a big part of the 2004 Red Sox, he had some big hits in the ALCS at some big times, stuff that will always be remembered in baseball history. I think that is part of why he got the send off he did. I will also add that Jeter got a send off that was much bigger than his ability on the field. I'm not saying he was not a great player, but players in Boston and New York who are high profile are more likely to get that sort of treatment, rightly or wrongly. Had Ortiz stayed in Minnesota and put up the same numbers he would not have gotten this type of sendoff.

        I will also say that the way Ortiz played later in has career, while passing every drug test, does lend some credence to the idea that he was clean. Of course, he may NEVER have been clean, he might have found a way to cheat the tests, or he could have found another BALCO, neither would surprise me. If he WAS using in 2009 and quit I would not have expected such a strong late career.
        I don't care if he did or didn't. That wasn't even close to my point.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

          I don't care if he did or didn't. That wasn't even close to my point.
          ??

          Not sure what to make of this. I never stated that was your point. I'm making my own points. My discussion in relation to your post was only about Bagwell and how it seems unfair that he gets lumped in while Ortiz skates. My other assertions are separate from your post. I'm just pointing out that there is some evidence that lends support to the idea that he was clean, that is a different discussion from the issue of Ortiz being given a pass while others have been convicted without a trial.

          My main issue is that someone like Bagwell is judged while Ortiz seemed to skate. Ortiz seems to be the only guy who is not being convicted by association. I don't think Bagwell deserved what he received, if he was not able to skate, granted he was elected, I don't think Ortiz should either.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            So here is my issues with Ortiz's "failed" test in 2003

            1) It was supposed to be kept confidential.
            2) The test results were simply supposed to be used to see if future testing was to be performed.
            3) The test results could not be used to suspend any player.
            4) We don't know know what banned substance was supposedly found in Ortiz's system.
            5) Commissioner Rob Manfred has stated that Ortiz's drug test may not have been reliable.

            On this "failed" test people adamantly assert that Ortiz is a "cheater". Really? I have no idea if Ortiz (or Bagwell) used PED's. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I simply don't know. And no one else either.
            This is pretty much how I see it. There seems to be very considerable reasonable doubt, and there is no way for Ortiz to go back and prove himself. Like I said before, that is my problem with leaking something like this. I just think some other guys are not getting the benefit of the doubt when they should be.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by dl4060 View Post

              ??

              Not sure what to make of this. I never stated that was your point. I'm making my own points. My discussion in relation to your post was only about Bagwell and how it seems unfair that he gets lumped in while Ortiz skates. My other assertions are separate from your post. I'm just pointing out that there is some evidence that lends support to the idea that he was clean, that is a different discussion from the issue of Ortiz being given a pass while others have been convicted without a trial.

              My main issue is that someone like Bagwell is judged while Ortiz seemed to skate. Ortiz seems to be the only guy who is not being convicted by association. I don't think Bagwell deserved what he received, if he was not able to skate, granted he was elected, I don't think Ortiz should either.
              I was confused. most of your post seemed centered around showing why he may be innocent - which is why I said that I didn't care one way or another. Your follow-up posts make your stance much clearer. Thanks!
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              • #37
                His former teammate Mark Teixeira isn't surprised Cano got busted.

                And yes, he does think/know there are HOFers who used PEDs. Two separate discussions IMO.


                https://www.northjersey.com/story/sp...ust/621730002/


                KANSAS CITY, Mo. – So, this could be awkward if the Yankees are planning a 10th anniversary party next year for their 2009 world championship team.

                Mark Teixeira said he was “not surprised’’ that Robinson Cano was busted for testing positive for a masking agent related to the use of performance enhancing drugs, earning the Mariners second baseman an 80-game suspension by Major League Baseball.

                Speaking Thursday on ESPN Radio’s ‘The Michael Kay Show,’ Teixeira sighed heavily before Kay asked if he’d suspected Cano’s link to PEDs?

                “Yeah, I mean, I don’t really want to get into too much detail. I love Robbie…but I’m just not surprised,’’ Teixeira said. “I don’t want to go much further, but, I think a lot of people are kind of saying the same thing.’’
                Teixeira referenced quotes by Brian Cashman, Tuesday at Washington as “kind of (having) to catch himself’’ in speaking about Cano.

                But the Yankees general manager said he’d have risked a heavy fine if he’d failed to disclose any prior knowledge of potential PED use by Cano during his Yankees years.

                “But, yeah, I’m just not surprised,’’ Teixeira said of Cano’s suspension.

                Cano fielded a grounder and flipped to first baseman Teixeira to secure the final out of the ’09 World Series against the Phillies.

                Teixeira mentioned the Biogenesis scandal and Cano’s relationship with former teammates Alex Rodriguez and Melky Cabrera as an evidence trail.

                “They’re his best friends,’’ Teixeira said. “When someone gets lumped into that group, it’s because there’s evidence.’’

                As a rookie on the Texas Rangers, Teixeira played with both A-Rod and Rafael Palmeiro, when Rodriguez admittedly began using steroids; Palmeiro failed a PED test late in his career. Teixeira said he played the game clean his entire career as a powerful, switch hitter and Gold Glove defender.

                “There’s guys in the Hall of Fame that never got exposed,’’ Teixeira said, but that’s as far as he went.

                “It is what it is, it’s uncomfortable for current players, it’s a distraction for current players,’’ Teixeira said of the PED discussion. “Former players sound like it’s crying over spilled milk and sour grapes and I never want to be anybody that is accused of that.’’

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by PVNICK View Post

                  The article was about Ortiz and Manfred trying to downplay.
                  Sorry about that. I thought we were talking about Cano at that point.
                  46 wins to match last year's total

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                  • #39
                    Carlos Gomez thinks testing "is not random", and that older guys and Latin players are targeted more than their share:

                    https://sports.yahoo.com/carlos-gome...170350540.html

                    “It’s not random. It’s not random. I can put my hand on fire, it’s not random,” Gomez told Yahoo Sports MLB Podcast host Jeff Passan. “They pick guys. I think it’s something the way you play, the way you act … I’m the oldest guy on the team. I get here earlier than everybody. Why? Because I have to work harder to maintain my body to support the rest of the season. When I do that and they come to you and have a drug test every time, you get furious. You get mad. One month into the season I got like seven drug tests. Something like that. Between five or seven. That’s not right. We have a guy on the team who for sure hasn’t had one drug test.”
                    Gomez said he feels like two groups of players are targeted for drug tests: Older players and Latin players. Gomez, 32, said he and Rays teammates Sergio Romo (35) and Denard Span (34) have been tested frequently this season.

                    An MLB spokesman told Yahoo Sports the league’s drug testing is handled by an independent program administrator selected by the league and the players’ union. MLB has no control over who is chosen to be tested, the spokesman said, and the league maintains testing is random.
                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    So here is my issues with Ortiz's "failed" test in 2003

                    1) It was supposed to be kept confidential.
                    2) The test results were simply supposed to be used to see if future testing was to be performed.
                    3) The test results could not be used to suspend any player.
                    4) We don't know know what banned substance was supposedly found in Ortiz's system.
                    5) Commissioner Rob Manfred has stated that Ortiz's drug test may not have been reliable.

                    On this "failed" test people adamantly assert that Ortiz is a "cheater". Really? I have no idea if Ortiz (or Bagwell) used PED's. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I simply don't know. And no one else either.
                    Your first three points are irrelevant to the question of whether Ortiz used PEDs or not. The question of whether the evidence should have been publicized is a different issue from the question of how good that evidence is. As far as the latter question, it’s true that we don’t know what he allegedly tested positive for, and as I understand it, there’s some kind of legal hang-up that prevents this from being reported, even to Ortiz himself. But such tests are generally very reliable, and when you add this to the fact that Ortiz hit as well in his late 30s as he did when younger, there’s ample reason for suspicion.
                    Last edited by Stolensingle; 05-22-2018, 08:29 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                      Speaking Thursday on ESPN Radio’s ‘The Michael Kay Show,’ Teixeira sighed heavily before Kay asked if he’d suspected Cano’s link to PEDs?

                      “Yeah, I mean, I don’t really want to get into too much detail. I love Robbie…but I’m just not surprised,’’ Teixeira said. “I don’t want to go much further, but, I think a lot of people are kind of saying the same thing.’’

                      “But, yeah, I’m just not surprised,’’ Teixeira said of Cano’s suspension.

                      Geez, I hate when people do this. Be a man and call somebody out and be ready to face Cano at some later date or totally keep your mouth shut.
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                        Geez, I hate when people do this. Be a man and call somebody out and be ready to face Cano at some later date or totally keep your mouth shut.
                        If I understand correctly, you aren't saying that he should have "kept his mouth shut, not spoken ill of a teammate etc." but that he did not really go into any detail as to why he felt that way?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by PVNICK View Post

                          If I understand correctly, you aren't saying that he should have "kept his mouth shut, not spoken ill of a teammate etc." but that he did not really go into any detail as to why he felt that way?
                          You can't try to take the high ground and say "I am not going to talk about this, etc." and then proceed to drop hint bombs and wink-wink at people and you know, kinda sorta say it anyway. If you are going to accuse somebody of something (which he did), drop the nice-guy act and go for it and face the guy man to man later. Or actually be nice guy and don;t talk about it at all.

                          Trying to have his cake and eat it too. He clearly outed an old teammate while still making it look like he wasn't.
                          But not just with this issue. I hate when people do that with anything.

                          "I'm not really going to go into it because I like ___________ so much, but..."
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                          • #43
                            Even Jack Clark did better accusing about Albert Pujols bcause he believed (or wanted to believe) the information/gossip that was relayed to him.
                            46 wins to match last year's total

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                              Even Jack Clark did better accusing about Albert Pujols bcause he believed (or wanted to believe) the information/gossip that was relayed to him.
                              Jack wanted all of us to believe that some trainer that did not even work with Pujols, came up one random day and shared a story with Clark about how this unknown prospect that neither worked with or for was using PEDs.

                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                                Jack wanted all of us to believe that some trainer that did not even work with Pujols, came up one random day and shared a story with Clark about how this unknown prospect that neither worked with or for was using PEDs.
                                Right, I know, but my point was he was willing to go out and accuse him outright, despite his flimsy info.
                                46 wins to match last year's total

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