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  • The super Astros fall from grace

    Not a good last year from a PR perspective.

    A year ago they were the hottest thing in sports with the best analytics and player development and a monster team and that still is true but a series of incidents made the Astros not exactly the most liked team in baseball.

    -Last year they traded for roberto osuna for a discount price after a DV incident

    -threw out a detroit journalist this year because verlander had a beef with him

    -the taubman incident

    -it seems they were stealing signs at least in 2017 using electronic equipment

    they are also not exactly popular in the professional baseball industry as they fired a lot of old school scouting personnel (which probably was a good albeit not popular move).

    Are the astros the new evil empire like the early 00s yanks or the Patriots in football?

    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dominik View Post

    Are the astros the new evil empire like the early 00s yanks or the Patriots in football?
    Don't lump the Yankees in just because you don't like them. They aren't cheaters like the Patriots and Astros.
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

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    • #3
      I'd rather lose than cheat to win. In the Astros' case, they cheated to win AND lose lmao.
      Using a stolen chant from Boston Celtics fans whenever an L.A. team is playing up there just reeks of inferiority complex.

      If hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports, then pitching must be the easiest thing to do in sports.

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      • #4
        Apparently they shook up the front office a bit after the world series loss and reassigned Nolan Ryan's son which prompted him to leave.
        Last edited by JessePopHaines16; 11-13-2019, 01:54 PM.

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        • #5
          MLB has made it fairly clear they don't have a problem with cheating if it's old school. It's the use of cameras where they draw the line. I think the Astros's view is that since baseball uses modern technology for everything else, why not cheat that way, too? They have a point. Cheating old school is still cheating, so MLB seems rather hypocritical.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dominik View Post
            Are the astros the new evil empire like the early 00s yanks or the Patriots in football?
            I don't see the Astros becoming like the '00s Yankees, who won by outspending everyone else. The Patriots seem a more apt comparison, as they got the reputation for winning by being smarter than everybody else, and that seems to be the narrative around the Astros. It'll be interesting to see how well that reputation holds up.
            Baseball Junk Drawer

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            • #7
              Like I said, when the Red Sox were caught doing the same thing in 2017, the got a fine and everyone forgot it happened. Even big Red Sox fans on this site forgot it happened.

              Despite the current ESPN narrative, I doubt anything of consequence comes of this for MLB or the Astros and I doubt anyone is talking about it come April at all. Fair or not.
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              • #8
                There is an old saying in baseball that if you are not trying to cheat by stealing signs/ altering the ball on the mound/ or attempting "neighborhood" plays on putouts, then you aren't really trying. Even corking bats was just another form of this stuff. I will admit that PED use was an escalation of cheating, but that wasn't in the name of winning, IMHO. PED use in any sport is more about establishing oneself in the sport, and establishing a basis for a big contract. This is true in baseball, just as any other sport. PED use is a reflection of the individual and not of the team. Fans who believe Tony LaRussa knew about his guys using PEDs will believe that, but I just don't. Baseball and cheating on the field will always exist, and it is part of the lore of the game.

                The Astros have brought baseball's onfield cheating into the 21st Century, and I say so be it. It was inevitable, and actually I am glad that the Evil Empire(s) were not to blame. Actually still, I am only a bit sorry the Cardinals didn't pull it off first. Oh well.

                Now, at the certain chance that this thread will be highjacked on the point, here I go:

                The analogy to the Patriots holds no more water than morning dew. Spygate was nothing to the larger form of cheating I believe went on over the deflated football in the hour or so before football's #1 game of the year, even while the Pats had been favored to win (I believe, to my limited knowledge). The coach of that crowd is a noted control freak, so spare me the point that he allowed it to slip that the balls were unguarded, or that each team had its own stash of footballs to cheat with. Further, I would not envy Pats fans defending their boy when their boy at QB was noted to have smashed his phone over the matter at a later point. It would have been much more enjoyable as a Pats fan to believe that the Pats' game plan was sufficient.

                I doubt baseball will ever have a franchise as famous for cheating as football has allowed. To repeat a point I have always made over football, that each game in football carries 10x the weight of 1 game in baseball. The number of games in each sport bears this out: 16 regular season football games, and 162 regular season baseball games..... 10x as many in the latter would lead a franchise and fans to weight each football game 10x as much.
                Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
                  MLB has made it fairly clear they don't have a problem with cheating if it's old school. It's the use of cameras where they draw the line. I think the Astros's view is that since baseball uses modern technology for everything else, why not cheat that way, too? They have a point. Cheating old school is still cheating, so MLB seems rather hypocritical.
                  That is night and day. Stealing signs by those on the field, that is no problem.
                  Now your talking electronics. Nothing will come of it, soon forgotten.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                    Like I said, when the Red Sox were caught doing the same thing in 2017, the got a fine and everyone forgot it happened. Even big Red Sox fans on this site forgot it happened.

                    Despite the current ESPN narrative, I doubt anything of consequence comes of this for MLB or the Astros and I doubt anyone is talking about it come April at all. Fair or not.
                    Correct, very soon forgotten.
                    Don't get why teams do it, of course to gain an edge.
                    But the way players move from team to team, not a surprise it came to light.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post
                      There is an old saying in baseball that if you are not trying to cheat by stealing signs/ altering the ball on the mound/ or attempting "neighborhood" plays on putouts, then you aren't really trying. Even corking bats was just another form of this stuff. I will admit that PED use was an escalation of cheating, but that wasn't in the name of winning, IMHO. PED use in any sport is more about establishing oneself in the sport, and establishing a basis for a big contract. This is true in baseball, just as any other sport. PED use is a reflection of the individual and not of the team. Fans who believe Tony LaRussa knew about his guys using PEDs will believe that, but I just don't. Baseball and cheating on the field will always exist, and it is part of the lore of the game.

                      The Astros have brought baseball's onfield cheating into the 21st Century, and I say so be it. It was inevitable, and actually I am glad that the Evil Empire(s) were not to blame. Actually still, I am only a bit sorry the Cardinals didn't pull it off first. Oh well.

                      Now, at the certain chance that this thread will be highjacked on the point, here I go:

                      The analogy to the Patriots holds no more water than morning dew. Spygate was nothing to the larger form of cheating I believe went on over the deflated football in the hour or so before football's #1 game of the year, even while the Pats had been favored to win (I believe, to my limited knowledge). The coach of that crowd is a noted control freak, so spare me the point that he allowed it to slip that the balls were unguarded, or that each team had its own stash of footballs to cheat with. Further, I would not envy Pats fans defending their boy when their boy at QB was noted to have smashed his phone over the matter at a later point. It would have been much more enjoyable as a Pats fan to believe that the Pats' game plan was sufficient.

                      I doubt baseball will ever have a franchise as famous for cheating as football has allowed. To repeat a point I have always made over football, that each game in football carries 10x the weight of 1 game in baseball. The number of games in each sport bears this out: 16 regular season football games, and 162 regular season baseball games..... 10x as many in the latter would lead a franchise and fans to weight each football game 10x as much.
                      Your not comparing players on the field stealing signs..................to the use of electronics
                      Night and day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What I will never understand a team complaining about a player on second base stealing signs.
                        That same team complaining probably would and did do the same.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I remember thinking, back in 2017, that something was not right. All things being equal, this type of electronic cheating is unacceptable.
                          “There are certain people’s names that are reminders of what men can be like.... Men like Joe DiMaggio are not just of their own time. They are men for the ages.”
                          – Kevin Costner

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

                            Your not comparing players on the field stealing signs..................to the use of electronics
                            Night and day.
                            You mean it's OK to cheat if you're not too good at it?

                            Teams used to evaluate players by the eye test and by easy to understand stats. Now they use advanced stats, computers, and other electronics (e.g., to measure spin of the pitch, exit velocity, launch angle, etc.). Everyone seems fine with that, because if something is allowed, why shouldn't you allow that something done in a more sophisticated fashion?

                            The fact that MLB draws a line at the use of cameras for stealing signs shows very clearly that while cheating was allowed before, it was never considered right, it was allowed mostly because there was no way to stop it. And that is the real problem, not the use of more advanced technology to cheat.
                            Last edited by Stolensingle; 11-14-2019, 10:24 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post

                              You mean it's OK to cheat if you're not too good at it?

                              Teams used to evaluate players by the eye test and by easy to understand stats. Now they use advanced stats, computers, and other electronics (e.g., to measure spin of the pitch, exit velocity, launch angle, etc.). Everyone seems fine with that, because if something is allowed, why shouldn't you allow that something done in a more sophisticated fashion?

                              The fact that MLB draws a line at the use of cameras for stealing signs shows very clearly that while cheating was allowed before, it was never considered right, it was allowed mostly because there was no way to stop it. And that is the real problem, not the use of more advanced technology to cheat.
                              Technological cheating goes back over 100 years. Perhaps you've read about the Phillies-Reds game from 1900 that involved relaying stolen signals via electrical wiring?

                              I don't see why a player or coach on the field stealing signs should be considered cheating. Trying to crack the other team's code is part of the game. Players talk into their gloves during mound visits now because they're worried about the opposing team reading their lips. If a hitter knew what pitch was coming because he read the pitcher's lips, I wouldn't consider that cheating, just heads-up baseball.

                              Using technology to steal signs though, makes the game less a matter of the players' abilities and more about who's got better tech. I enjoy baseball because it's a human endeavor; I don't want machinery to be the difference-maker on the field.
                              Baseball Junk Drawer

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