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The super Astros fall from grace

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  • #16
    MLB needs to figure something out (e.g., pitchers & catchers pass "signals" via apple watches or earpieces) otherwise games are going to become even longer with the constant changing of signals during at bats, etc.

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    • #17
      Definitely agree regarding earpieces. They are still a bit afraid because of "tradition" but then again teams have tablet computers in the dugout and every play was designed by super nerds.

      An ear piece is certainly not the thing that destroys America's pastime.
      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

        Don't lump the Yankees in just because you don't like them. They aren't cheaters like the Patriots and Astros.
        Clemens, Pettitte, ARod, Canseco himself and a bunch of others who wound up on the Mitchell Report.
        NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
        Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
        Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

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        • #19
          Originally posted by SteveJRogers View Post

          Clemens, Pettitte, ARod, Canseco himself and a bunch of others who wound up on the Mitchell Report.
          Oh please, the Yankees arent unique in that regard and you know it. Every MLB team had players that were juicing.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

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          • #20
            Maybe chris correa's claim (cards guy who went to jail for hacking astros database) that he did it because the astros hacked them first was actually right.
            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post

              You mean it's OK to cheat if you're not too good at it?

              Teams used to evaluate players by the eye test and by easy to understand stats. Now they use advanced stats, computers, and other electronics (e.g., to measure spin of the pitch, exit velocity, launch angle, etc.). Everyone seems fine with that, because if something is allowed, why shouldn't you allow that something done in a more sophisticated fashion?

              The fact that MLB draws a line at the use of cameras for stealing signs shows very clearly that while cheating was allowed before, it was never considered right, it was allowed mostly because there was no way to stop it. And that is the real problem, not the use of more advanced technology to cheat.
              Again, night and day, two different worlds.................stealing signs from second base.................teams know that and change signals.
              Using electronic devices............ then relay the info to the team, to the batter.
              No comparison. Why do you think nothing is made about players on the field stealing signals..................but electronics, is a deal.
              Add to that, runners on base is not full time. Electronics can be used all 9 innings.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                Electronics can be used all 9 innings.
                For the first time in this life, I will have to side with the use of technology. To state otherwise is to fight a losing battle. If you can't beat them, join them, because this is all about the game within the game, and for that matter....the very lore of the baseball.

                There is a unique opportunity here for baseball. MLB could address the slow and slower pace of games. I would support allowing the catcher to use a mouthpiece and to speak directly to an earpiece each pitcher would wear on the mound. Pitchers would nod and shake heads as always, but the catcher would call out the pitch by some form of code. This code could be as simple as any word that the pitcher finds convenient, and agreed upon in advance. Pitchers and catchers might find ways to change the code words as necessary during the game as well.

                Cleaning up baseball by addressing sign stealing is a lost cause. To jam the tech devices used will simply add to the cat and mouse games which will continue no matter which commissioner demands what. If an approach can be found which reduces miscommunication and speeds up the game in the process, that solution would be beneficial to each team and to fans.
                Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

                Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post

                  For the first time in this life, I will have to side with the use of technology. To state otherwise is to fight a losing battle. If you can't beat them, join them, because this is all about the game within the game, and for that matter....the very lore of the baseball.

                  There is a unique opportunity here for baseball. MLB could address the slow and slower pace of games. I would support allowing the catcher to use a mouthpiece and to speak directly to an earpiece each pitcher would wear on the mound. Pitchers would nod and shake heads as always, but the catcher would call out the pitch by some form of code. This code could be as simple as any word that the pitcher finds convenient, and agreed upon in advance. Pitchers and catchers might find ways to change the code words as necessary during the game as well.

                  Cleaning up baseball by addressing sign stealing is a lost cause. To jam the tech devices used will simply add to the cat and mouse games which will continue no matter which commissioner demands what. If an approach can be found which reduces miscommunication and speeds up the game in the process, that solution would be beneficial to each team and to fans.
                  Sounds to me more like your pushing the use of electronics, (catcher/pitcher) to defeat electronics used by the other team, no hand finger signals by the catcher to be seen.
                  I really don't think what the Astros and some other teams did, will have a long life, soon forgotten.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    If what the Astros have done is to abuse technology off of the field, that would be a different can of worms from what I understand to date.

                    As I understand it to this point, the Astros have been cheating on-the-field. I.E., once a signal is known, someone would communicate something to hitters by banging on a trash can. While this should have been easy enough to detect right away, I am guessing that everyone questioned how the signal was stolen in the first place. It must have taken awhile to find out. This original "theft" of the sign might be what has come to light recently.

                    Again, if what the Astros have been doing is more like what the Cardinals had done to the Astros some years back, that is a different matter and would require a deeper investigation. Such developments would not involve the 'game within the game'.
                    Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                    A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

                    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by abolishthedh View Post

                      For the first time in this life, I will have to side with the use of technology. To state otherwise is to fight a losing battle. If you can't beat them, join them, because this is all about the game within the game, and for that matter....the very lore of the baseball.

                      There is a unique opportunity here for baseball. MLB could address the slow and slower pace of games. I would support allowing the catcher to use a mouthpiece and to speak directly to an earpiece each pitcher would wear on the mound. Pitchers would nod and shake heads as always, but the catcher would call out the pitch by some form of code. This code could be as simple as any word that the pitcher finds convenient, and agreed upon in advance. Pitchers and catchers might find ways to change the code words as necessary during the game as well.

                      Cleaning up baseball by addressing sign stealing is a lost cause. To jam the tech devices used will simply add to the cat and mouse games which will continue no matter which commissioner demands what. If an approach can be found which reduces miscommunication and speeds up the game in the process, that solution would be beneficial to each team and to fans.
                      My thoughts exactly. This is a classic arms race, where each side has to create new technology to counter the other's. There are certainly ways for catchers to communicate to pitchers iso that the other team can't learn their signals.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I disagree that this is a minor issue that will be quickly forgotten. If the Astros were truly stealing signs electronically in instant time, which appears to be the case, then Manfred has to channel Landis on this. There have to be lifetime bans meted out to the GM and others otherwise this type of cheating will escalate out of control. What the Astros are accused of doing has the potential to call into question the basic integrity of the game. The 2017 WS now has an asterisk next to it. My only concern is how many other teams are already engaged in similar behavior. Manfred needs to both make it clear with harsh punishments that the risks of engaging in this behavior will outweigh the benefits, and concurrently adopt the use of earpieces, etc., by pitchers and catchers.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 3rdGenCub View Post
                          MLB needs to figure something out (e.g., pitchers & catchers pass "signals" via apple watches or earpieces) otherwise games are going to become even longer with the constant changing of signals during at bats, etc.
                          Lol, did ya hit the bong before you typed this?
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                          • #28
                            The evidence mounts! An email:

                            One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”
                            The Athletic noted that MLB rules allow for scouts to steal signs from the stands, as long as the signs aren’t given to their own team during the same game and as long as the signs are stolen with their own eyes or binoculars. The rules do not seem to allow cameras, as the Astros executive requested.

                            A year later, an Astros employee by the name of Kyle McLaughlin was caught using a camera to monitor the dugouts of the Cleveland Indians and Boston Red Sox during the playoffs. The Astros escaped penalty, with MLB accepting the Astros’ explanation that McLaughlin was doing so to ensure the team’s opponents weren’t cheating.
                            Yeah, sure.

                            And the net widens, as reported earlier:

                            Among those implicated in the scheme are Astros manager A.J. Hinch, Red Sox manager Alex Cora and New York Mets manager Carlos Beltran. The latter two were reported to have played a key role in devising the system when they were members of the 2017 Astros, Cora as bench coach and Beltran as designated hitter.
                            https://sports.yahoo.com/houston-ast...020530673.html
                            Last edited by Stolensingle; 11-16-2019, 10:18 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Sad for baseball. This is not going to be quickly forgotten.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2XN...ature=emb_logo
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-uEm6iRD0

                              https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...al/4230811002/

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                              • #30
                                Boy, now analysts are looking at pitch data to conclude which players might have benefited most from this scheme. Some people are actually calling for players like Altuve and Bregman to be banned for life. That's not going to happen, but if it can be shown that they used the sign stealing system, they could be punished.

                                the Astros gained a significant advantage at home after implementing their sign-stealing system. I estimate its total cumulative value at somewhere around five wins.
                                José Altuve improved across the board when batting in Minute Maid Park after May 19 [the estimated date when the Astros put their sign-stealing system into place]. But when we take into account his performance on the road, one thing really stands out; his results against offspeed pitches. His ability to recognize and either take or punish offspeed pitches really took off at home after May 19. As a result, his expected wOBA against offspeed pitches increased from .274 to .363.
                                Like Altuve, Alex Bregman improved almost across the board after May 19, both home and away. But he saw improvements against all pitch types at home that weren’t necessarily mirrored on the road. He really benefited when taking pitches, particularly those thrown out of the zone. This was Bregman’s first full year in the majors, so it’s possible he was still making adjustments to major league pitching. Prior to May 19, he was running an 18.1% strikeout rate, lower than what he posted in his rookie season in 2016, but much higher than his minor league strikeout rates (though again, the quality of pitching he saw relative to that in the minors presumably also improved). After May 19, his strikeout rate dropped to 14.6%, and his chase rate and swinging strike rate saw similar drops.
                                Carlos Correa’s results weren’t nearly as straightforward as Altuve’s or Bregman’s. He saw some improvement in some aspects of his game, but also developed struggles in others. The two aspects that really stand out are his swings against offspeed pitches and his fastball takes. When swinging at offspeed pitches, Correa scuffled prior to May 19 and on the road, but he crushed offspeed pitches at home. He posted a .452 expected wOBA on contact against offspeed pitches after the sign-stealing system was implemented, a 73 point improvement over what he had posted before then.
                                https://blogs.fangraphs.com/which-pl...sign-stealing/

                                There's a lot of randomness in the data, and I think the author's conclusions are premature. For example, some while some values suggest an improvement in home after the sign-stealing system began, other values suggest less improvement, or a greater improvement on the road, where presumably there was no system. This is true not only for individual players, but for the team at a whole, where you would expect individual variations to be smoothed out. The author seems to focus on values that suggest an improvement at home after the system began, while ignoring values that suggest the opposite. This isn't just cherry-picking. The fact that values can be found that go in both directions, suggest all the variation may be random.

                                That said, just to get to the point where writers start asking questions like these, speculating on how much individual players might have benefited, has to be very concerning.
                                Last edited by Stolensingle; 12-03-2019, 12:32 AM.

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