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Owners Want to Use WAR to Determine Salary Replacing Arbitration

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  • Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
    To be fair I thought Bluesky answered when he responded:


    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    We go round and round on this issue of analytics. If teams shouldn't use analytics then how should team evaluate players then?



    "Accurate records of observable events like we always used before the hypothetical stats that are purposely easily manipulated and purposely difficult for the average person to understand- like WAR."​
    Yea that was my response.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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    • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

      Yea that was my response.
      Ok, what accurate records are you referring to? Be specific.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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      • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

        Ok, what accurate records are you referring to? Be specific.
        Be specific? The stats dude. Hits, runs, doubles, triples, average, on-base, etc.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

          Be specific? The stats dude. Hits, runs, doubles, triples, average, on-base, etc.
          That would be weird.











          Comment


          • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

            Be specific? The stats dude. Hits, runs, doubles, triples, average, on-base, etc.
            So just raw stats? How do raw stats given any sort of "projections" or idea what a player may do in the future?
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
              To be fair I thought Bluesky answered when he responded:


              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              We go round and round on this issue of analytics. If teams shouldn't use analytics then how should team evaluate players then?



              "Accurate records of observable events like we always used before the hypothetical stats that are purposely easily manipulated and purposely difficult for the average person to understand- like WAR."​
              The thing about WAR is that the more you look closely at it, the more you realize how much of it is subjective. Replacement value, positional value, base running, and every aspect of fielding are all highly subjective, and can change a player's 'value' tremendously if manipulated enough. Pretty much every aspect of value besides hitting that these stats try to place numerical value on should be taken with a huge grain of salt; that is why I am very skeptical of guys who aren't great hitters, but who end up looking like greats according to WAR.

              Heck, even WARs hitting values are highly suspicious. I remember pointing out that Derek Jeter has 353 Rbat and Robin Yount has just 233 Rbat despite the fact that hitting-wise they were virtually identical (both quality and quantity). The best explanation I could get was 'well that's what WAR felt like giving them'. Again, a totally subjective thing that makes a HUGE difference in their WAR totals.

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              • I'm skeptical when a very good athlete has these wildly varying defensive scores from year to year.

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                • Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
                  I'm skeptical when a very good athlete has these wildly varying defensive scores from year to year.
                  I've always wondered about this. Can defense vary from year to year like offense? A .271 hitter can go crazy one year and hit .361 like Norm Cash. And a Wade Boggs can hit .259 for a season during his prime.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                    So just raw stats? How do raw stats given any sort of "projections" or idea what a player may do in the future?
                    I never considered they couldn’t be projected? Why not?
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=bluesky5;n3675391]

                      I never considered they couldn’t be projected? Why not?[/QUOT


                      Yep.

                      I present for your consideration: Eddie Murray


                      Ruth, Aaron, Schmidt, 70's Carew, 80s Boggs, and others will do as well.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
                        Yep.

                        I present for your consideration: Eddie Murray


                        Ruth, Aaron, Schmidt, 70's Carew, 80s Boggs, and others will do as well.
                        Not sure what you mean Scott? HWR asked how we can project traditional counting and rate stats. I said I didn’t see why we couldn’t. We’d be able to project for anyone, naturally.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                          Not sure what you mean Scott? HWR asked how we can project traditional counting and rate stats. I said I didn’t see why we couldn’t. We’d be able to project for anyone, naturally.
                          I'm supporting you: those players were known to be consistent and I'm saying consistent is synonymous-ish with projectable.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post

                            I'm supporting you: those players were known to be consistent and I'm saying consistent is synonymous-ish with projectable.
                            I see, I thought we agreed just wasn’t exactly sure what you were saying.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                              I propose the following to evaluate players. No stats needed. All players must fit under one of these categories.

                              1. Professional hitter
                              2. Proven Veteran
                              3. Proven Winner
                              4. The Gamer
                              5. Clubhouse Cancer
                              6. Pete Rose
                              I still think this is the best way to evaluate ballplayers.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                                I still think this is the best way to evaluate ballplayers.
                                What if we add a Jose Canseco just to mix it up?
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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