ARod vs. Pujols

[fantasymarcus]

I know in the fantasy world ARod is the clear number one guys. However, I'm one of those that thinks Puljos is better in the real world. If he had the same backup as ARod, I'd love to see what kind of numbers he'd put up.

[Mattingly]

If either of them had Manny Ramirez hitting behind them, wouldn't both of their numbers escalate, as did David "Big Papi" Ortiz?

Same with Ruth and Gehrig, the guy protecting you always ups your numbers.

For sheer offense, I don't think you could count out Ortiz. Does the Cubs' lineup supporting Derrek Lee impress moreso than the Cards' lineup supporting Pujols?

[GiambiJuice]

Same with Ruth and Gehrig, the guy protecting you always ups your numbers.

I just wanted to point out that Ruth's two greatest seasons ('20 and '21) and his 3rd or 4th greatest season ('23) came before Gehrig was even in the leaugue.

[Mattingly]

I just wanted to point out that Ruth's two greatest seasons ('20 and '21) and his 3rd or 4th greatest season ('23) came before Gehrig was even in the leaugue.

That's interesting. You know who batted behind him in those years? Gehrig didn't arrive until 1925.

As to the main question, if Pujols were on the Yankees and had Sheffield, Giambi and Matsui hitting behind him, do you think he'd have greater, lesser or about the same offensive output as he does now?

In support of Alex, I'll just note that he'd had great numbers in Seattle and Texas, and especially in Texas, those guys certainly weren't really stars when he'd started there, but he still put up awesome numbers.

[GiambiJuice]

I agree, it certainly helps to have a good lineup behind you (and in front of you), but Edmonds has been great (except for last year) and I would think Larry Walker is still respected by most pitchers...

It's still not as good as Sheffield, Matsui, Giambi etc..

[GiambiJuice]

When all's said and done, I believe A-Rod and Pujols will both be top 15-20 players - possibly even top 10. I think Pujols - as a hitter - will be compared with Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig and A-rod will be in the discussions for greatest all-around player along with Mays, Wagner, etc.

...I only said "in the discussion". Neither of them has a chance to actually come out ahead IMHO.

[Mattingly]

I agree, it certainly helps to have a good lineup behind you (and in front of you), but Edmonds has been great (except for last year) and I would think Larry Walker is still respected by most pitchers...

It's still not as good as Sheffield, Matsui, Giambi etc..

True, but Jeter was also criticized for not hitting very well when he'd had Soriano in front of him and Giambi batting behind him. People wondered how could he not hit well when he'd been sandwiched between those guys, had such great stuff to hit.

In 2004, Alex didn't hit so well, and Sheffield, Giambi were certainly hitting better in 2004 than in 2005. Yet Alex put up much better numbers in 2005 than in 2004. I'd say it's more him than anyone else.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rodrial01.shtml

In fact, I believe that it was Jeter who was a great beneficiary of Alex' offensive production. In the end, you need protection, but you've still gotta be the big bopper on the team, or all else is pretty meaningless to me.

[DoubleX]

I know in the fantasy world ARod is the clear number one guys. However, I'm one of those that thinks Puljos is better in the real world. If he had the same backup as ARod, I'd love to see what kind of numbers he'd put up.

What do you mean by "backup?" Pujols has been surrounded by a terrific lineup for his whole career. Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Reggie Sanders, Larry Walker, J.D. Drew, he had Fernando Vina and Edgar Renteria setting the table for him, then Tony Womack in a career year. The lineups Pujols is in, is probably better than what A-Rod had for most of his career. Certainly better than what A-Rod had in Texas, and better than the Mariners after Griffey left (and probably before he left as well).

Purely as a hitter, Pujols is better. As an overall player, I'd take A-Rod in a heartbeat. A-Rod is much better on the bases and he plays good defense at far more important positions, at which offense like his is rare (especially at SS, where it's pretty much unprecedented).

And before everyone starts throwing out the clutch and postseason arguments against A-Rod, he is a .305 career postseason hitter with a 0.927 OPS, and that includes his terrible ALDS last year. In just the ALCS (which is the furthest he's advanced to), he's a .315 hitter with a 1.024 OPS.

[Astro]

Alex Rodriguez could be the best player ever to play the game, had he stayed at SS he may have had an even greater chance at this...

50 Homerun seasons, can steal 30 bases if needed, drive in 120 a season, score 100 runs, post averages above .300, OPS around or above 1.000 and play gold glove defense...

[Blackout]

In support of Alex, I'll just note that he'd had great numbers in Seattle and Texas, and especially in Texas, those guys certainly weren't really stars when he'd started there, but he still put up awesome numbers.

A-rod had 142 RBI in 2002 with those scrubs in Texas, its amazing.

[Blackout]

although A-rod isnt as post-season proven as Pujols is

[Blackout]

Alex Rodriguez could be the best player ever to play the game, had he stayed at SS he may have had an even greater chance at this...

50 Homerun seasons, can steal 30 bases if needed, drive in 120 a season, score 100 runs, post averages above .300, OPS around or above 1.000 and play gold glove defense...

I think moving to New York helps his chances more than moving to 3rd base hurts them

Assuming he finishes out a healthy career, he'll have enough years logged down in NY to be able to go into the HOF as a Yankee

[Sultan_1895-1948]

That's interesting. You know who batted behind him in those years? Gehrig didn't arrive until 1925.

Babe actually started off as a cleanup hitter, but because of all the walks, Huggins moved him up to third. Meusel, a good cleanup hitter, hit behind him until Gehrig got there. Once Gehrig was there, Meusel went to 5th.

Gehrig's true effect on Babe wasn't felt until a couple months into the '27 seaon, when he began to get more good pitches to hit than ever before. Lou helped out Babe a little, and Babe helped out Lou a little. There could be no let-up what-so-ever after Babe hit, if there was, Lou would kill 'em.

Babe never walked 140 times again, but did put up 137, 137, 136, 128, 130, 114. He led the league in walks every year but one even after Lou was hitting behind him.

[Myankee4life]

Pujols is the better hitter and the guy I'd want up if the game was on the line.

A-rod is the better all-around player and the first guy I'd want starting a team.

[Mattingly]

Babe actually started off as a cleanup hitter, but because of all the walks, Huggins moved him up to third. Meusel, a good cleanup hitter, hit behind him until Gehrig got there. Once Gehrig was there, Meusel went to 5th.

Gehrig's true effect on Babe wasn't felt until a couple months into the '27 seaon, when he began to get more good pitches to hit than ever before. Lou helped out Babe a little, and Babe helped out Lou a little. There could be no let-up what-so-ever after Babe hit, if there was, Lou would kill 'em.

Babe never walked 140 times again, but did put up 137, 137, 136, 128, 130, 114. He led the league in walks every year but one even after Lou was hitting behind him.

Thanks. I need to study Yankee history some more so that I can know these things like the back of my hand.