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  • #16
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    There's a HUGE difference between the acts you're referencing and using HGH on a handful of occasions. If those clergy members have committed those acts, I'd say they've thrown out their religious convictions to begin with and that their morality is far more corrupted than Pettitte. It's ridiculous to equate the two.



    I am, because religious people place a lot more emphasis on the meaning of that book and the potential reprecussions from lying than you do. It's a flaw in the system, but that's remedied somewhat in the fact that you would still fear the potential for criminal punishment for lying, and that's where your motivation to be truthful would come in. Devout people fear that in addition to potential punishment from god.



    Did Pettite ever outright deny using HGH on prior occassions? I honestly don't know. But if it never came up, why bother bringing it up? I bet you've done things you shouldn't have done, so perhaps you should now use this board as your public forum for owning up and apologizing for all the wrongs you've committed. If you wait until I find the dirt on you, well then you obviously are not a virtuous person. The fact that you haven't admitted to everything you've done, even if no one is asking, makes you a bad person.


    I'm increasingly believing that in baseball during this era, such a person is needle in a haystack.
    I've been pretty up front about my transgressions, I think. I've done many of the things you've alluded to in your post, many quite worse. I have not kept it a secret that I have sat on the defendant side of a criminal court room.

    But, such acts I may have committed in the past aren't really relevant to my qualifications to offer sound opinions on a baseball message forum. That is to say that they are irrelevant in all practical sense to my relationship with the BBF posting body. The same can't be said for Pettitte. The specific transgression in question is something he hid in face of concern (real or dog and pony show) expressed by the institutions in which he makes his living.

    Me not telling you exactly how I paid my college tuition does not amount to a lie by omission because that information isn't pertinent to our purposes here. Pettitte not being forthcoming about his transgression does amount to a lie of omission because he didn't volunteer relevant information when transgressions of the sort were being investigated by his employer (or employer's parent organization).

    I'm not saying that Andy needs to volunteer if he was unfaithful to his wife, or that you have to tell me if you stole a candy bar when you were a kid. I'm just saying his admission wasn't noble by any definition. I'm not saying that he hasn't behaved in a manner that is relatively laudable - compared to other cheats, rather I'm saying that being the most honest of the cheaters is something of a dubious distinction, and not something worthy of praise.

    Maybe when in court, I should ask to swear on Marx, or a copy of Illmatic...
    Last edited by digglahhh; 02-14-2008, 09:46 AM.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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    • #17
      Pettitte is getting a pass because instead of perpetuating lies, he chose to come clean. He took HGH for crying out loud, he didn't commit any heinous crime.

      Had Clemens come clean, he probably would have also been easily forgiven. The biggest problem I have with him is that he continues to prop himself up. He only speaks of how he has achieved everything through hard work, lived his life with the highest ethical standards, keeps talking about his records, and how trusting he was, etc... Has Clemens ever said anything negative about himself? The guy is an egomaniac.
      Last edited by curveball; 02-14-2008, 09:57 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Doctor X View Post
        Fans are willing to forgive the contrite.

        --J.D.
        Not true, in my opinion. Look at Jason Giambi.

        Pettitte was contrite after, first, lying. He is Yankee royalty, so the fans are giving him a free pass.

        Contrast this with Giambi, who admited his wrong doing from the start. He has been crucified for years. Every time he is hot, there are wishpers of him being back on the juice. Nobody, I repeat, nobody has ever called him a 'class act' for his honest admissions.

        The Yankee fans, and the fawning sports media, are hypocrites in this regard.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
          I believe Pettitte has now admitted to everything. He's a very religious guy, so when he swears on the bible that he's telling the truth, I'm going to believe him.
          There have been millions of people who have lied under oath. Countless numbers of them have doubtless been just as religious as Petite.

          As an atheist I find the idea that 'devout' religious types can be counted on to tell the truth when swearing on a bible more so than non-believers swearing on something else deeply offensive. Religious types do not have better morals than us heretics. I find it pathetic and absurd when weak men like Paul Byrd and Andy Petite use the fact that they are "good christians" to defend themselves. It is weak, cowardly, and says very bad things about who they are. Christians are certainly no better than anyone else. The fact that many of them seem very willing to ram their beliefs down my throat and attempt and force me to pledge allegiance to their false deity is a testament to this.

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          • #20
            [QUOTE=curveball;1113499]Pettitte is getting a pass because instead of perpetuating lies, he chose to come clean. He took HGH for crying out loud, he didn't commit any heinous crime.

            Let's be clear about a few things. Pettitte came clean for one reason and one reason alone- HE GOT CAUGHT!
            He's getting a pass because he wears his religion on his sleeve and nobody in Congress, Democrats or Republicans who turned yesterdays circus into a joke, have the stones to go anywhere near that issue.
            There are fewer lowlifes in society than hypocrites who preach to others from a soapbox and then get caught in actions that are supposedly against their beliefs.
            I wonder where this discussion would have went yesterday had it been a Muslim's deposition that said that one day he would have to face Allah rather than a Christain who said that one day he would have to face God?
            It's completely ridiculous that Pettite gets a pass on this.
            He's a liar who spilled because his ass was in hot water.
            Period.

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            • #21
              This Is Getting Out Of Hand

              This thread is begining to take on a deeply offensive, shockingly intolerent, anti-Christian bigotry.

              Will the moderators please step in ?

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              • #22
                Is it out of hand? For the purpose of this site, probably. While Pettite and others (not here that much) have made his religion an issue, any discussion here should be used as a precursor to judge Pettite based on his religious convictions.

                Just as politics for politics sake is not really to be discussed here (and, yes, I am referring to another thread in CE at present. You want to dis party politics? Get a blog.) let's keep the discussion about the hearings themselves and not what we personally think about the memebrs of congress or the players involved.
                Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                • #23
                  I believe there are essentially two types of people when swearing on a bible. Those that believe they should do the right thing. And those that believe in saving their own rear end.

                  It doesn't matter what religion you are, you can fall in either category. There are plenty of atheists that will do the right thing. And there are plenty of devoutly religious people who, when push comes to shove, will do what they think is necessary to save themselves. And of course vice versa.

                  I don't know enough about Pettite to know what he really believes in. But I know that his religion doesn't play into my decision factor. The fact that he did lie before, did drugs that he admitted was wrong, and finger pointed his father all lead me to believe that there is no reason he wouldn't lie again, even under oath

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by curveball View Post
                    Pettitte is getting a pass because instead of perpetuating lies, he chose to come clean. He took HGH for crying out loud, he didn't commit any heinous crime.
                    Wait, taking PEDs isn't some heinous crime?

                    Tell that to self-righteous tar and feather crowd that populates this board, and the mainstream media.

                    Better yet, tell it to Barry Bonds!!
                    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Brooklyn View Post
                      I believe there are essentially two types of people when swearing on a bible. Those that believe they should do the right thing. And those that believe in saving their own rear end.

                      It doesn't matter what religion you are, you can fall in either category. There are plenty of atheists that will do the right thing. And there are plenty of devoutly religious people who, when push comes to shove, will do what they think is necessary to save themselves. And of course vice versa.

                      I don't know enough about Pettite to know what he really believes in. But I know that his religion doesn't play into my decision factor. The fact that he did lie before, did drugs that he admitted was wrong, and finger pointed his father all lead me to believe that there is no reason he wouldn't lie again, even under oath
                      This is a balanced assesment. I agree with everything you said.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
                        Not true, in my opinion. Look at Jason Giambi.
                        Really? He won a "Comeback Player" award or some such nonsense. I am not saying he has become an avatar of sports heroism, but even amongst my fellow Glorious Red Sox fans, I only hear the occasional joke.

                        My few Yankees Fan friends do not seem to hate him. Granted, this is all anecdotal, but I do not hear the venom I would expect.

                        Pettitte was contrite after, first, lying. He is Yankee royalty, so the fans are giving him a free pass.
                        See? I would disagree with the "royalty." He was always Clemens' sidekick. I will defer to actual Yankees fans, so you may have a better perspective. I am writing about degree--I do not think Giambi is hated, nor do I think will be Pettite. Some of it may depend on who, exactly, it is. Bonds, for example, had a lot more at stake so attracted more negative attention. The test I cannot run is a Clemens still playing for the Yankees--please! Give him $25 million! PLEASE!!!--and having been contrite.

                        GRS will still "boo" him, but Y fans? Maybe you have a better perspective. Of course we will never know.

                        The Yankee fans, and the fawning sports media, are hypocrites in this regard.
                        Well . . . no argument there! :cap:

                        Because . . . if Schil or Big Papi ever tested positive . . . it would be . . . DIFFERENT!!! They NEEDED it!!

                        --J.D.

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                        • #27
                          Arguments about steroids and their role in baseball is hardly contained to two teams. Let's not let our own biases cloud reality here or give too much credit to the voices of certain teams. It still only goes so far. And no one has gotten an actual pass outside of what the rules are. Giambi is still skewered.

                          It seems so many are crying for admissions of guilt because so many seem players to be flaunting what they did then denying it. Which is more hateful for a lot of people than using, itself. Petitte's not really getting a pass, but he's given a lot of people what they want. Everyone's waiting for an I Told You So and he's given it to them.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                            Arguments about steroids and their role in baseball is hardly contained to two teams.
                            But . . . but . . . there ARE only two teams!!11!! :cap:

                            Let's not let our own biases cloud reality here or give too much credit to the voices of certain teams.
                            In all seriousness and jokes aside biases do rule. I am new HERE but a few years prior to these revelations much of the discussion of whether or not, say, Clemens was suspected of using steroids unfortunately broke down to Clemens Lovers and Clemens Haters. A significant number of both sides contained rabid fans from both of the Two Teams [Tm.--Ed.]

                            Rational? Fair? This is not about either--it is about perceptions. Perceptions are giving Pettite the supposed "free pass." Frankly, what has made the debate on PED and steroids has been the involvement of major players. For better or worse one of them happens to have played for both of the Two Teams, and also has been hailed as one of if not the best pitchers since [Insert historically phenomenal pitcher HERE.--Ed.] The irrational fans--as in . . . lots of them--will be inflamed further by that. "Roger Haters" are jealous/upset that he has the reputation of excellence and, frankly, some of that jealousy/hatred comes from whom he played for and when.

                            Giambi is still skewered.
                            By whom? Granted, this is a board dedicated to analysis so the Blind Fandom rampant on radio and your local bar will not cut it; however, how is he being "skewered?" I do not hear it. I cite the Two Teams [Franchises available.--Ed.] because if anyone should be doing the "skewering" it should be fans of one of those teams. As above, aside from the jokes and mutterings . . . nothing. Now part of it may be because he is near the end and not much of a factor, nor is expected to be a factor. But fans are that irrational.

                            Seriously. Was he a HoF candidate? Did he not continue to play and make $$$? Did not reporters and fans hail his "comeback" after his apology for doing things that would require an apology? Compared to Bonds, the comment is "well, at least Giambi came clean!"

                            Petitte's not really getting a pass, but he's given a lot of people what they want. Everyone's waiting for an I Told You So and he's given it to them.
                            Which is kind of what I was saying: Giambi gave people that, as did Pettite.

                            --J.D.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by whoisonit View Post
                              Not true, in my opinion. Look at Jason Giambi.

                              Pettitte was contrite after, first, lying. He is Yankee royalty, so the fans are giving him a free pass.

                              Contrast this with Giambi, who admited his wrong doing from the start. He has been crucified for years. Every time he is hot, there are wishpers of him being back on the juice. Nobody, I repeat, nobody has ever called him a 'class act' for his honest admissions.

                              The Yankee fans, and the fawning sports media, are hypocrites in this regard.
                              --Except Giambi never actually even said what he was apoligising for. That is hardly coming clean. Everybody knows (or thinks anyway) Giambi was a big time juicer. He was already under heavy criticism and he comes out a apolgises while not actually admitting to anything. That kind of mealy mouthed, half ass apology is not what starts someone on the way to forgiveness. It just made him the punchline of a few more jokes.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                                --Except Giambi never actually even said what he was apoligising for. That is hardly coming clean.
                                You know what ? You're right. I stand corrected. I actually forgot about that strange meandering apology that never once had a point of contrition. Ha.

                                I guess now I might hold off on this comparison until I see what type of evasive platitudes come from the disingenuous, overrated, money is my true messhia, Pettitte when the obsequeious beat reporters lob him softballs this spring.

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