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stick a fork in bonds, he's done

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  • Skin & Bones
    replied
    Old Sweater, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Crawford didn't juice in 2000.

    Paxton Crawford, reached by phone last night, offered no more than a minute to explain himself, despite the fact that in the ESPN The Magazine issue that hit newsstands yesterday he detailed his steroid use beginning in 1999 in minor league camp with the Red Sox and continuing in the majors with the team in 2000 and 2001.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...-sxZ3rtE99imEQ

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Sweater
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
    old sweater: wcoab, what do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

    wilshad posted that he has "yet to see a single case where a pitcher 'suddenly statistically bettered' his performance .... to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time."
    to which i replied, "you hafta know where to look."

    mattingly, however, asked for pitchers "whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels..."
    big difference between "statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels."
    Not if the "statistically bettered were increased astronomical numbers."

    What is the standard considered between the two?

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  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    willisraverchk77: i say bonds was clearly the biggest moron of them all.

    ok, then. i amend and shorten it to simply "may be."

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    old sweater: wcoab, what do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

    wilshad posted that he has "yet to see a single case where a pitcher 'suddenly statistically bettered' his performance .... to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time."
    to which i replied, "you hafta know where to look."

    mattingly, however, asked for pitchers "whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels..."
    big difference between "statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels."

    Leave a comment:


  • willisraverchk77
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post

    may be. but no bigger a moron than the hundreds of baseball players who used.
    i say a bigger one because he had a lot more to lose than most. most players who used, if the mitchel report is any indication,probably figured, "well, what have i got to lose". they weren't risking a HoF legacy like bonds did. they were just fighting for a job in many cases.

    who's the bigger moron, a guy who spends one paycheck to buy lotto tickets, or a guy who's already rich mortgaging his mansion to buy lotto tickets?

    i say bonds was clearly the biggest moron of them all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Sweater
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
    willshad: I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically bettered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.

    wcoab: you hafta know where to look.

    Mattingly: can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons?

    no, i can not; no one can.

    wcoab/ What do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    willshad: I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically bettered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.

    wcoab: you hafta know where to look.

    Mattingly: can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons?

    no, i can not; no one can.
    does this in itself then, mean to you that bonds was the only player who used?

    bonds' 2001 season was electrifying in a way that might not ever be equaled - statistically or as theater (.863 slugging aside, he clobbered a home run every 12+ swings).

    many point to bonds' dramatically increased numbers as the end all be all portrait of a user, neglecting the fact that the hard stats of hundreds of players who used did not change all that much.

    "not all that much," though, is a very loaded term.
    to keep a connection to bonds intact for you, let me offer that the rally monkey championship season of the 2002 champion angels, f'rinstance, was largely on the back of a pitcher who used... whose name i have not ever seen on a suspected users' list. that his name does not jump out at you in .8 seconds demonstrates just how many have prospered while flying under the radar.

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  • Old Sweater
    replied
    Jason Giambi December 2003
    Admitted Using: Steroids (The Clear, The Cream, Deca-Durabolin, Injectable Testosterone), Human Growth Hormone
    What he said: Testifying before the Grand Jury, Giambi admitted to using undetectable BALCO drugs and injectable testosterone provided by Greg Anderson. He also said he used Deca-Durabolin and hGH he bought at a Gold’s Gym near Las Vegas. He testified that he used the BALCO drugs in 2002 and 2003, the Deca-Durabolin in 2001, and the hGH from 2001 to 2003. Giambi implied Bonds’ steroid use when he testified that he was drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success. His confidential testimony was leaked to the San Fransisco Chronicle; excerpts were published in a Dec. 2, 2004 article entitled Giambi admitted taking steroids.



    Jason 1999/.315/.422/.553/33hr/123rbi/no admitted use/age 28/158 games
    ----- 2000/.333/.476/.647/43hr/137rbi/no admitted use/age 29/152 games
    ----- 2001/,342/.477/.660/38hr/120rbi/admitted use/age 30/154 games
    ----- 2002/.314/.435/.598/41hr/122rbi/admitted use/age 31/155 games
    ----- 2003/.250/.412/.527/41hr/107rbi/admitted use/age 32/156 games
    ----- 2004 .208/.342/.379/12hr/40rbi/ no admitted use/age 33/ 80 games
    ----- 2005 .271/.440/.535/32hr/87rbi/no admitted use/age 34/139 games
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tom House May 2005
    Admitted Using: Steroids (Non-specific)
    What he said: In a telephone interview with San Fransisco Chronicle reporter, Ron Kroichick, House admitted to using steroids ‘for a couple of seasons’ during his career (1971-1978). House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff in baseball were experimenting with steroids in the 1970’s. This was, and still is, the earliest account of steroid use in baseball. House’s admission and comments are from a May 3, 2005 San Fransisco Chronicle article entitled House a 'failed experiment' with steroids.

    Tom House said he gained 30 lbs/recovered quicker/no gain in velocity



    Paxton Crawford June 2006
    Admitted Using: Steroids (Deca-Durabolin, Winstrol), Human Growth Hormone
    What he said: In an article by ESPN’s Amy K. Nelson, Crawford admitted to using steroids and hGH during the 2001-2003 season. Crawford said steroids ‘had a hold of the game’ and that players were ‘walking around like zombies.’ Crawford’s admission was published in the June 21, 2006 issue of ESPN The Magazine, in article entitled Why Pitchers Juice.

    Paxton Crawford

    2000/29ip/3.41era/no admitted use
    2001/39ip/4.75era/admitted use

    I have read in one article that Paxton Crawford claimed a velocity gain of 3mph/just hear say/ no speed gun proof

    Paxton Crawford claims that PED use led to back and shoulder problems that ended his career/ now he is a farmer

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Jason Grimsley June 2006
    Admitted Using: Steroids (Deca-Durabolin), Prohormones (1-AD), Human Growth Hormone
    What he said: In an IRS affidavit, Grimsley says he used steroids throughout his 15 year career, but had used only hGH since MLB instituted its drug testing program in 2004. Grimsley named other players who were users though the names were redacted. David Segui later admitted to being one of the redacted names. Grimsley’s admission was released in an affidavit of IRS agent Jeff Novitzky.


    Jason Grimsley admitted to PED use for his career/ no spikes or decline to show/ can't be used for comparison

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Paul Byrd October 2007
    Admitted Using: Human Growth Hormone(Somatropin)
    The Story: Byrd received 13 prescriptions for (some for Somatropin) between August 2002 and January 2005 while a member of the Royals and Braves. from the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center, an anti-aging clinic in Florida. Byrd claimed he had a legitimate growth hormone deficiency and that the hGH was used under "a doctor's care and supervision.' Byrd's name was revealed in a October 17, 2007 San Francisco Chronicle article entitled Cleveland Pitcher Spent Thousands on Human Growth Hormone.

    Paul Byrd

    2000/83ip/6.51era/no admitted use/age 30
    2001/103ip/4.44era/no admitted use/age 30
    2002/228ip/3.90/admitted use/age 31
    2003/missed entire season/ age 32
    2004/114ip/3.94/admitted use/age 33
    2005/204ip/3.74/admitted use/age 34
    2006/179ip/4.88/ no admitted use/age 35
    2007/192ip/4.59/no admitted use/age 36


    As always you wonder if Paul Byrd admitted to all use and never has been known as a hard thrower.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here is a good link for info on all the PED players

    http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/20...documents.html
    Last edited by Old Sweater; 02-26-2008, 06:50 AM. Reason: added to post

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  • Mattingly
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
    willshad: True Im making assumptions, but thats all that ANYONE does in any case.
    i hafta disagree with you, willshad. not all posts re substances are based on assumptions.

    I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically betterered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.
    you hafta know where to look.
    If that's the case, presuming you know where to look, can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons? Please list both the pitchers and the relevant years (when they were at least age 34) in which their stats increased very dramatically.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skin & Bones
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    1) Clemens was 34 in 1997, Bonds was 39 in 2004.

    2) Clemens, while having maybe his best season in 1997, wasnt doing anything he hadnt done previously in his career, before steroids. He had similiar seasons in 1986, 1990, and 1992, and even in 1994 he was close to that level. If Bonds was clean in 2004 it was far better than anything he had done cleanly, even during his prime younger years.

    3) It was Clemens' first full healthy season in several years, so we dont really know if he was actually in decline, or just experiencing mid career injury woes from 1993-1996.

    If Bonds had come back in 2001 and hit as he did during 1993 or 1994 then that would be a totally different story. But he was much BETTER. It would still be more suspicious than Clemens due to his age, but it would be at least acceptably possible that he was still clean. If he was five years younger and still producing as in his peak years, it wouldnt really be an issue at all.

    I fail to see how 86, 90, or 92 match up with 97, but whatever. So what if he was 34 in 1997, Sammy Sosa was 32 in 2001, his best season, Giambi was 30 in his best season, Mcgwire was 34 in his. Does that mean they were all clean because their best seasons occured at a younger age? Clemens best ERA+ occured at age 42 anyway, compared to Bonds best OPS+ occuring at age 37. And you can mention Clemens decline in innings, I can mention Bonds decline in games.

    If anything, Clemens being injured from 1993-1996 leads more to the possibility of him juicing, since according to you he "juiced for injuries". It would seem plausible using your logic that he would juice in 1997 because of the injuries he dealt with prior to that season.

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  • willshad
    replied
    1) Clemens was 34 in 1997, Bonds was 39 in 2004.

    2) Clemens, while having maybe his best season in 1997, wasnt doing anything he hadnt done previously in his career, before steroids. He had similiar seasons in 1986, 1990, and 1992, and even in 1994 he was close to that level. If Bonds was clean in 2004 it was far better than anything he had done cleanly, even during his prime younger years.

    3) It was Clemens' first full healthy season in several years, so we dont really know if he was actually in decline, or just experiencing mid career injury woes from 1993-1996.

    If Bonds had come back in 2001 and hit as he did during 1993 or 1994 then that would be a totally different story. But he was much BETTER. It would still be more suspicious than Clemens due to his age, but it would be at least acceptably possible that he was still clean. If he was five years younger and still producing as in his peak years, it wouldnt really be an issue at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skin & Bones
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    If you honestly believe that Bonds suddenly stopped taking steroids before 2004, then proceeded to post a .609 on base percentage and an .812 slugging percentage cleanly, at the age of 39, then all i can assume is that Bonds is paying you to stick up for him here. Its obvious that Bonds stopped juicing after 2004, and you can tell just from the numbers. He was still a great hitter in 2006-2007, but certainly not the beast he was previously. It looked like normal decline years for a hall of fame player. He wasnt a lifetime .290 career hitter suddenly hitting .370.
    If Bonds 04 is a juiced season, why is clemens 1997 season "alleged clean"?

    There's no more or less evidence that Clemens was juiced in 1997 compared to Bonds in 2004. You either believe they both juiced those seasons, or there is a bias.




    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    Ken Caminiti, Bret Boone, Ivan Rodriguez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Greg Vaughan, Jim Edmonds..and thats ust off the top of my head.

    The majority of those names aren't linked to steroids. If we are just throwing out random names, include Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson as well.

    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I dont have 'proof' that Thome juiced, but it is clear he did SOMETHING after 2000 to suddenly start hitting a home run every 10 at bats for the rest of his career.
    Hard Work?

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    If you honestly believe that Bonds suddenly stopped taking steroids before 2004, then proceeded to post a .609 on base percentage and an .812 slugging percentage cleanly, at the age of 39, then all i can assume is that Bonds is paying you to stick up for him here. Its obvious that Bonds stopped juicing after 2004, and you can tell just from the numbers. He was still a great hitter in 2006-2007, but certainly not the beast he was previously. It looked like normal decline years for a hall of fame player. He wasnt a lifetime .290 career hitter suddenly hitting .370.
    Oh and heres a few more names for you:

    Ken Caminiti, Bret Boone, Ivan Rodriguez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Greg Vaughan, Jim Edmonds..and thats ust off the top of my head.

    I dont have 'proof' that Thome juiced, but it is clear he did SOMETHING after 2000 to suddenly start hitting a home run every 10 at bats for the rest of his career.

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    willshad: True Im making assumptions, but thats all that ANYONE does in any case.
    i hafta disagree with you, willshad. not all posts re substances are based on assumptions.

    I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically betterered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.
    you hafta know where to look.

    Most of these guys also suddenly drastically increased muscle mass from one season to the next as well. Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, Mcgwire, Thome, Giambi, the list goes on.
    you list exactly 6 players from a list that "goes on". care to take a stab at additional names?

    Can you make a similiar list for pitchers?
    you are caught up in physique build-up to prove your point, but that's a false trail.

    If as many pitchers had been juicing as hitters, then why not the same level of improvement?
    this "level of improvement", it is based on what?

    It has been well documented that Bonds .... decided he needed to be 'the man' again...
    the original source of this assumption is... care to guess?

    But after 2000 and 2001, when [Bonds] obviously no longer had to worry about the injury...
    let's say that you are correct about bonds' health being a motivating factor to use.
    why would the worry stop? if anything he would be more prone. no?


    He had been documented [that] he wished to wipe out all of Ruth's records...
    that was just bonds doing some flapping.

    He wasnt doing it to keep his job, or to overcome injury.
    um...

    Its not an assumption or a guess, because he wasnt injured and wasnt in danger of losing his job.
    ???

    If you can give me another possible motivation then Im willing to listen.
    see above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skin & Bones
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I dont like or dislike anybody. True Im making assumptions, but thats all that ANYONE does (including courts and public opinion) in any case. You look at the evidence and try to make an objective decision based on it. The fact is that I dont see real evidence that steroids helps pitchers as much as it does hitters.
    Juan Rincon, Kevin Brown, Dan Naulty, Jason Grimsley, just to name a few. Grimsley is a fantastic example of what steroids did for him starting in 1999. Naulty is another fine example. Paxton Crawford is another example, and he even details how steroids aided him with his velocity.




    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    But thats not really the issue here. It has been well documented that Bonds, after seeing the press that Sosa and Mcgwire got in 1998, decided he needed to be 'the man' again and take steroids as a way of showing these guys up. In 1999 he got hurt and fell off the radar, but still hadnt shown any real signs of decline.he may well have started juicing to overcome that injury. But after 2000 and 2001, when he obviously no longer had to worry about the injury, and was breaking records and doing things no one had ever done, why keep taking them? What possible motivation can there be? He had been documented saying he wished to wipe out all of Ruth's records, and continued to try and wipe out Aaron's records.
    I'm not sure what his reasons were, I'm just going by what his "alleged" ex-mistress said.

    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    He wasnt doing it to keep his job, or to overcome injury. Its not an assumption or a guess, because he wasnt injured and wasnt in danger of losing his job. he wanted to break the records of those guys by juicing because he knew he couldnt do it naturally. If you can give me another possible motivation then Im willing to listen. Clems on the other hand wasnt breaking any records. All of the lifetime pitching records are well out of reach. He was already a hall of famer, but starting to get injured a lot. The way I see it he was either taking (if indeed he was) them due to his injuries, or to try and prolong his career. True, he improved a lot in 1997-1998, but it wasnt any better than he had done earlier in his career. In fact 1997 was probably his best year, and it was when he was supposedly 'clean'. And again, if he was indded still juicing when he went to the Yankees, why did he suddenly do so much worse? Either he WASNT juicing, or the steroids werent helping him a whole lot. Or maybe they helped him those 2 years, but not after. The picture certainly isnt as clear as it is with Bonds.
    Sure, Clemens wasn't breaking any records, but that doesn't change the fact that he aged extremely well. With that said, yes, his statline isn't as stark as Bonds, but what does that mean exactly? It seems your focused on the sustained success of four years. Yes, Bonds had four years where he was breaking records, but what about in 1999? 2005? What about 2006, 2007? Did he just stop juicing? What made steroid testing better from 05-07, then it was from 03-04? You also mention that Clemens was allegedly "clean" in his best season, that's true, but arguably so was Bonds. Game of Shadows never mentions once that Bonds was using steroids in 2004, which if not his best season, it was his second best.





    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    Im not trying to single out anyone. If Clemens suddenly became Sandy Koufax in 1999 and maintained if for the next 4 years, id be saying the same things about him as i do about Bonds. But the evidence just isnt there.

    Fair enough, though if your looking for someone who fits that description, Randy Johnson is your man.


    BTW, you mentioned Jim Thome, what proof do you have that he juiced?

    Leave a comment:

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