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  • #91
    1) Clemens was 34 in 1997, Bonds was 39 in 2004.

    2) Clemens, while having maybe his best season in 1997, wasnt doing anything he hadnt done previously in his career, before steroids. He had similiar seasons in 1986, 1990, and 1992, and even in 1994 he was close to that level. If Bonds was clean in 2004 it was far better than anything he had done cleanly, even during his prime younger years.

    3) It was Clemens' first full healthy season in several years, so we dont really know if he was actually in decline, or just experiencing mid career injury woes from 1993-1996.

    If Bonds had come back in 2001 and hit as he did during 1993 or 1994 then that would be a totally different story. But he was much BETTER. It would still be more suspicious than Clemens due to his age, but it would be at least acceptably possible that he was still clean. If he was five years younger and still producing as in his peak years, it wouldnt really be an issue at all.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by willshad View Post
      1) Clemens was 34 in 1997, Bonds was 39 in 2004.

      2) Clemens, while having maybe his best season in 1997, wasnt doing anything he hadnt done previously in his career, before steroids. He had similiar seasons in 1986, 1990, and 1992, and even in 1994 he was close to that level. If Bonds was clean in 2004 it was far better than anything he had done cleanly, even during his prime younger years.

      3) It was Clemens' first full healthy season in several years, so we dont really know if he was actually in decline, or just experiencing mid career injury woes from 1993-1996.

      If Bonds had come back in 2001 and hit as he did during 1993 or 1994 then that would be a totally different story. But he was much BETTER. It would still be more suspicious than Clemens due to his age, but it would be at least acceptably possible that he was still clean. If he was five years younger and still producing as in his peak years, it wouldnt really be an issue at all.

      I fail to see how 86, 90, or 92 match up with 97, but whatever. So what if he was 34 in 1997, Sammy Sosa was 32 in 2001, his best season, Giambi was 30 in his best season, Mcgwire was 34 in his. Does that mean they were all clean because their best seasons occured at a younger age? Clemens best ERA+ occured at age 42 anyway, compared to Bonds best OPS+ occuring at age 37. And you can mention Clemens decline in innings, I can mention Bonds decline in games.

      If anything, Clemens being injured from 1993-1996 leads more to the possibility of him juicing, since according to you he "juiced for injuries". It would seem plausible using your logic that he would juice in 1997 because of the injuries he dealt with prior to that season.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
        willshad: True Im making assumptions, but thats all that ANYONE does in any case.
        i hafta disagree with you, willshad. not all posts re substances are based on assumptions.

        I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically betterered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.
        you hafta know where to look.
        If that's the case, presuming you know where to look, can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons? Please list both the pitchers and the relevant years (when they were at least age 34) in which their stats increased very dramatically.
        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
        Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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        • #94
          Jason Giambi December 2003
          Admitted Using: Steroids (The Clear, The Cream, Deca-Durabolin, Injectable Testosterone), Human Growth Hormone
          What he said: Testifying before the Grand Jury, Giambi admitted to using undetectable BALCO drugs and injectable testosterone provided by Greg Anderson. He also said he used Deca-Durabolin and hGH he bought at a Gold’s Gym near Las Vegas. He testified that he used the BALCO drugs in 2002 and 2003, the Deca-Durabolin in 2001, and the hGH from 2001 to 2003. Giambi implied Bonds’ steroid use when he testified that he was drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success. His confidential testimony was leaked to the San Fransisco Chronicle; excerpts were published in a Dec. 2, 2004 article entitled Giambi admitted taking steroids.



          Jason 1999/.315/.422/.553/33hr/123rbi/no admitted use/age 28/158 games
          ----- 2000/.333/.476/.647/43hr/137rbi/no admitted use/age 29/152 games
          ----- 2001/,342/.477/.660/38hr/120rbi/admitted use/age 30/154 games
          ----- 2002/.314/.435/.598/41hr/122rbi/admitted use/age 31/155 games
          ----- 2003/.250/.412/.527/41hr/107rbi/admitted use/age 32/156 games
          ----- 2004 .208/.342/.379/12hr/40rbi/ no admitted use/age 33/ 80 games
          ----- 2005 .271/.440/.535/32hr/87rbi/no admitted use/age 34/139 games
          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Tom House May 2005
          Admitted Using: Steroids (Non-specific)
          What he said: In a telephone interview with San Fransisco Chronicle reporter, Ron Kroichick, House admitted to using steroids ‘for a couple of seasons’ during his career (1971-1978). House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff in baseball were experimenting with steroids in the 1970’s. This was, and still is, the earliest account of steroid use in baseball. House’s admission and comments are from a May 3, 2005 San Fransisco Chronicle article entitled House a 'failed experiment' with steroids.

          Tom House said he gained 30 lbs/recovered quicker/no gain in velocity



          Paxton Crawford June 2006
          Admitted Using: Steroids (Deca-Durabolin, Winstrol), Human Growth Hormone
          What he said: In an article by ESPN’s Amy K. Nelson, Crawford admitted to using steroids and hGH during the 2001-2003 season. Crawford said steroids ‘had a hold of the game’ and that players were ‘walking around like zombies.’ Crawford’s admission was published in the June 21, 2006 issue of ESPN The Magazine, in article entitled Why Pitchers Juice.

          Paxton Crawford

          2000/29ip/3.41era/no admitted use
          2001/39ip/4.75era/admitted use

          I have read in one article that Paxton Crawford claimed a velocity gain of 3mph/just hear say/ no speed gun proof

          Paxton Crawford claims that PED use led to back and shoulder problems that ended his career/ now he is a farmer

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Jason Grimsley June 2006
          Admitted Using: Steroids (Deca-Durabolin), Prohormones (1-AD), Human Growth Hormone
          What he said: In an IRS affidavit, Grimsley says he used steroids throughout his 15 year career, but had used only hGH since MLB instituted its drug testing program in 2004. Grimsley named other players who were users though the names were redacted. David Segui later admitted to being one of the redacted names. Grimsley’s admission was released in an affidavit of IRS agent Jeff Novitzky.


          Jason Grimsley admitted to PED use for his career/ no spikes or decline to show/ can't be used for comparison

          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Paul Byrd October 2007
          Admitted Using: Human Growth Hormone(Somatropin)
          The Story: Byrd received 13 prescriptions for (some for Somatropin) between August 2002 and January 2005 while a member of the Royals and Braves. from the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center, an anti-aging clinic in Florida. Byrd claimed he had a legitimate growth hormone deficiency and that the hGH was used under "a doctor's care and supervision.' Byrd's name was revealed in a October 17, 2007 San Francisco Chronicle article entitled Cleveland Pitcher Spent Thousands on Human Growth Hormone.

          Paul Byrd

          2000/83ip/6.51era/no admitted use/age 30
          2001/103ip/4.44era/no admitted use/age 30
          2002/228ip/3.90/admitted use/age 31
          2003/missed entire season/ age 32
          2004/114ip/3.94/admitted use/age 33
          2005/204ip/3.74/admitted use/age 34
          2006/179ip/4.88/ no admitted use/age 35
          2007/192ip/4.59/no admitted use/age 36


          As always you wonder if Paul Byrd admitted to all use and never has been known as a hard thrower.

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


          Here is a good link for info on all the PED players

          http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/20...documents.html
          Last edited by Old Sweater; 02-26-2008, 06:50 AM. Reason: added to post

          Comment


          • #95
            willshad: I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically bettered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.

            wcoab: you hafta know where to look.

            Mattingly: can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons?

            no, i can not; no one can.
            does this in itself then, mean to you that bonds was the only player who used?

            bonds' 2001 season was electrifying in a way that might not ever be equaled - statistically or as theater (.863 slugging aside, he clobbered a home run every 12+ swings).

            many point to bonds' dramatically increased numbers as the end all be all portrait of a user, neglecting the fact that the hard stats of hundreds of players who used did not change all that much.

            "not all that much," though, is a very loaded term.
            to keep a connection to bonds intact for you, let me offer that the rally monkey championship season of the 2002 champion angels, f'rinstance, was largely on the back of a pitcher who used... whose name i have not ever seen on a suspected users' list. that his name does not jump out at you in .8 seconds demonstrates just how many have prospered while flying under the radar.
            "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
              willshad: I have yet to see a single case where a pitcher suddenly statistically bettered his performance a great degree after juicing, to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time.

              wcoab: you hafta know where to look.

              Mattingly: can you please list a few pitchers whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels that Bonds has done after the 2000 season, as compared to prior seasons?

              no, i can not; no one can.

              wcoab/ What do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post

                may be. but no bigger a moron than the hundreds of baseball players who used.
                i say a bigger one because he had a lot more to lose than most. most players who used, if the mitchel report is any indication,probably figured, "well, what have i got to lose". they weren't risking a HoF legacy like bonds did. they were just fighting for a job in many cases.

                who's the bigger moron, a guy who spends one paycheck to buy lotto tickets, or a guy who's already rich mortgaging his mansion to buy lotto tickets?

                i say bonds was clearly the biggest moron of them all.

                Comment


                • #98
                  old sweater: wcoab, what do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

                  wilshad posted that he has "yet to see a single case where a pitcher 'suddenly statistically bettered' his performance .... to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time."
                  to which i replied, "you hafta know where to look."

                  mattingly, however, asked for pitchers "whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels..."
                  big difference between "statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels."
                  "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    willisraverchk77: i say bonds was clearly the biggest moron of them all.

                    ok, then. i amend and shorten it to simply "may be."
                    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
                      old sweater: wcoab, what do you mean by saying, you have to know where to look, replying to Willshad and then telling Mattingly, no I can not, no one can.

                      wilshad posted that he has "yet to see a single case where a pitcher 'suddenly statistically bettered' his performance .... to a level he hadn't attained before, then continues it for a period of time."
                      to which i replied, "you hafta know where to look."

                      mattingly, however, asked for pitchers "whose numbers have increased to the astronomical levels..."
                      big difference between "statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels."
                      Not if the "statistically bettered were increased astronomical numbers."

                      What is the standard considered between the two?

                      Comment


                      • Old Sweater, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Crawford didn't juice in 2000.

                        Paxton Crawford, reached by phone last night, offered no more than a minute to explain himself, despite the fact that in the ESPN The Magazine issue that hit newsstands yesterday he detailed his steroid use beginning in 1999 in minor league camp with the Red Sox and continuing in the majors with the team in 2000 and 2001.
                        http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...-sxZ3rtE99imEQ

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Skin & Bones View Post
                          Old Sweater, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Crawford didn't juice in 2000.



                          http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...-sxZ3rtE99imEQ
                          From the same magazine.

                          What he said: In an article by ESPN’s Amy K. Nelson, Crawford admitted to using steroids and hGH during the 2001-2003 season.
                          Older article I guess Skin & Bones. The guy really pitch long enough for the subject at hand anyways.

                          Comment


                          • old sweater: What is the standard considered between ["statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels"]?

                            well, it's all arbitrary, i guess.
                            but can it be agreed that bonds' numbers improved as none other's?

                            what has been forgotten is that while dozens of ballplayers used "clear" / "the clear" and "the cream", no one other than bonds improved statistically the way that bonds did.
                            all of the answers are not found in a jar.
                            "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                            Comment


                            • well, bonds did get somewhat of a legal victory today. though he did get bad news as well.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
                                old sweater: What is the standard considered between ["statistically bettered" and "increased to astronomical levels"]?

                                well, it's all arbitrary, i guess.
                                but can it be agreed that bonds' numbers improved as none other's?

                                what has been forgotten is that while dozens of ballplayers used "clear" / "the clear" and "the cream", no one other than bonds improved statistically the way that bonds did.
                                all of the answers are not found in a jar.

                                Other players could have taken a bath in the clear/cream and couldn't have done what Bonds did. IMO<.......I have to admit I never cared for Bonds and his arrogant ways but he just one of those players, that you wouldn't run to the fridge to get a snack, when he was in the batters box. I have watched many games at a pool hall where there isn't that many baseball fans but when Bonds came up to bat people start nudging with there elbows or pointing at the TV, when Bonds came up to bat. As soon as his at bat was over, they would go back to eating and drinking.

                                Comment

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