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Would you forgive Clemens and Bonds if they Apologized??

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  • #31
    Originally posted by fenrir View Post
    maybe pettitte did use longer. not too sure. he still could be using, mlb doesnt test for hgh.
    Nor do they have a test for some of the newer steroids. My whole point is Clemens is being used as the whipping boy by the press, fans and MLB for something that is rumored to be widespread, because of his fame. I doubt if there is one fan that wouldn't feel the same way, if they was in Clemens shoes.

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    • #32
      eh, theres nothing really to forgive. IF they used, and lied about it, yeah thats not good. But its not really my place to forgive or not. These guys arent role models (they shouldnt be at any rate), arent heroes, they are human beings who screw up just like everyone else.

      can they forgive themselves when the time comes? Will they be able to live with the consequences of their actions? Thats really the question. Theres nothing really to forgive on my end, since sports stars are entertainers, ultimately.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
        Just go's to show you the hate and prejudice against Clemens.
        That would be a self-assumption on your part. It is possible to believe that Clemens used PEDs for an extended period without the hate and predjudice.
        ?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
          Nor do they have a test for some of the newer steroids. My whole point is Clemens is being used as the whipping boy by the press, fans and MLB for something that is rumored to be widespread, because of his fame. I doubt if there is one fan that wouldn't feel the same way, if they was in Clemens shoes.
          Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

          Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

          Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

          Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


          Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.

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          • #35
            Lets face the facts, Pettite is also catching some flack because he revealed what Roger told him about steroid use going back to 1995.

            Not going to defend Andy he lied in the past but fear under oath brought out the truth. Even if sincere that he took that substance to recover from an injury, I don't cut him any slack as guilty as any other that did.

            What else can he do, he said he was sorry, didn't hide from the press stood there and took what they threw at him, what more could he do.

            Roger chooses the Pete Rose strategy stand and fight and so far he appears to be digging a deeper hole.

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            • #36
              the problem i have with clemens is his stats. it just doesn't seem normal to me. im looking at clemens 1996 season and i see a bit of a drastic change in his performance, especially in his last ten starts in 1996. according to the clemens bio on baseball library.com after the all star break clemens struck out 123 batters in 111 1/3 innings. its like he came out of nowhere more durable and stronger then he had been in the past three seasons!!...then he goes on to have the best back 2 back stretch of his career, a combined 198 era+, two cyyoung awards, set career highs in so/9 twice, and won two straight triple crowns. why wasn't he capable of this before? clemens best stretch pre toronto was from 1990-1992 when he was in his 20's with a 180 era+, no triple crowns, striking out less batters per game, 1 cyyoung. thats a hell of a stretch, but what happened in toronto was better, and he was in his mid 30's!!!!!! wtf kind of career path is that? he then got injured in 1999, started on hgh, and probably used lesser forms to avoid another injury. still he posted a 150 era+ in his 40's, and 180 from 04-06. it's weird career path, and besides an injury plauged season or two...he didnt decline. only other guys getting better in their 30's and 40's prior to their 20's is mcgwire, bonds, palmerio, all juicers. with pettitte i don't see any weird spikes in his career that would seem unsual to me. i think he used more for injuries.
              Last edited by fenrir; 02-20-2008, 12:24 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

                Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

                Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

                Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


                Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.

                It is unfair.

                I don't understand why all the fans that despise the use of PED's so much continue to show their support of a game where there is wide spread rumors about a high percentage of players using PED's. I don't approve of athletes using PED's like most fans, but I'm not going to be throwing self righteous high morals at them for use of PED's in a league that has condoned it for years and have not done nothing about it except for the selected few. Maybe some fans should wait until little white bunny rabbits start playing on the field after they clean the game up which IMO will be never.

                As far as Clemens go's he has taken the path that most players have, that have HOF numbers. Why do you think the majority do it? Has to be a good reason, if you use any logic.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                  Here we go again, fair or not fair it's the big names they go after. We spoke of this before, why do they keep bringing up Gaylord Perry and rule breaking. Because he won 300 games thats why, don't bother with any so so pitchers that may have done the same.

                  Can we talk some street talk now. What would happen if they laid off of Roger. For sure, OH get the black player Barry but leave Roger alone. Either way someone will think it was unfair, to leave Roger alone or go after him.

                  Clemens is where he is because he chose to fight, welcomed that panel of politicians. He was going to prove to them and the world that McNamee was liar and in the end, he should have stayed home. Tripped up on dates, conflicting statements and the words of his best buddy Andy Pettite he looks worse than ever.

                  Get all over Pettite say what you like if Roger never confessed to him and I believe Pettite, it was Roger's own words that finished him off with the public.


                  Lets forget all the others you keep harping on, Perry, McNamee the rat, Pettite. If Roger didn't go the way of the needle he wouldn't be in this position.


                  If Pettitte is playing the choir boy he should have sang a truthful tune and admitted to the press that he cheated and knew about short term use of HGH. Pettitte hung himself with that excuse when he volunteered that info of his 2004 use.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
                    It is unfair.

                    I don't understand why all the fans that despise the use of PED's so much continue to show their support of a game where there is wide spread rumors about a high percentage of players using PED's. I don't approve of athletes using PED's like most fans, but I'm not going to be throwing self righteous high morals at them for use of PED's in a league that has condoned it for years and have not done nothing about it except for the selected few. Maybe some fans should wait until little white bunny rabbits start playing on the field after they clean the game up which IMO will be never.

                    As far as Clemens go's he has taken the path that most players have, that have HOF numbers. Why do you think the majority do it? Has to be a good reason, if you use any logic.

                    I'm with you on that one, the game never was and never will be completely clean. If the fans wanted it that way we would never watch the game of baseball or in plain truth we would not watch or attend any sport.

                    I'm not going to shut out the game I love because it has flaws and rule breakers.

                    As for Roger, he can't win, admit or fight, he is now viewed differently than some years ago. Because there others who have not been brought up front won't change how he is viewed. It still goes back to the fact that he put himself in this position. He supplied the ammo by his supposed action. I say supposed because even though I think he was a user he still has to be considered innocent.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Steven Tyler View Post
                      FYI-I couldn't care less is the proper phrase.

                      Both forms are in widespread usage.

                      http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm
                      :cap:

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rockin500 View Post
                        eh, theres nothing really to forgive. IF they used, and lied about it, yeah thats not good. But its not really my place to forgive or not. These guys arent role models (they shouldnt be at any rate), arent heroes, they are human beings who screw up just like everyone else.

                        can they forgive themselves when the time comes? Will they be able to live with the consequences of their actions? Thats really the question. Theres nothing really to forgive on my end, since sports stars are entertainers, ultimately.
                        I pretty much agree here. This whole "steroid era" garbage is blown way out of proportion. What's amazing to me is how the Mitchell Report solely focused on Steroids and HGH (which is merely a recovery tool), yet completely left out presumbly 40-50 years of possible Amphetamines abuse. I mean it's not like they would bother talking to Mike Schmidt about his use of amphetamines, and ask what he knew about them and their possible usage around the sport, yet Mitchell had Giambi basically repeat his entire steroid regimen again, which everyone already knew about. Now with Greenies, unlike HGH, there's legitimate evidence that it does improve athletic performance, but since the old-timers may have dabbled with these drugs, MLB doesn't want to look into it's past use, perhaps calling into question numbers or records of the past.

                        For what it's worth, while fans may complain about baseball not testing for HGH, there is also a possibility that the Amphetamines testing may not stop the users from taking them.

                        Dr. Gary Wadler of the World Anti-Doping Agency says undetectable amphetamines are already available.


                        http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....friday/2.html

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Zito75 View Post
                          I've already lost all my respect for both guys. Personally I could care less if I see either on a diamond ever again.

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                          • #43
                            They never will so it doesn't matter.
                            "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

                            "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

                            "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by NYMets523 View Post
                              They never will so it doesn't matter.
                              and assuming they did use, thats on them. They havent done anything TO me to make me have to forgive them, anyways. It'd be akin to giving Ozzy Osbourne forgiveness for all the years of excess and then him apologizing to everyone for his screwups. He wouldnt need to apologize to US. he would need to apologize to his family and those directly hurt by any actions. or keith richards or robert downey junior or russell crowe or drew barrymore..

                              as maximus asked so eloquently: "Are you not entertained?" And thats what professional sports is. entertainment with a competitive basis. Nothing more, nothing less.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Skin & Bones View Post
                                I pretty much agree here. This whole "steroid era" garbage is blown way out of proportion. What's amazing to me is how the Mitchell Report solely focused on Steroids and HGH (which is merely a recovery tool), yet completely left out presumbly 40-50 years of possible Amphetamines abuse. I mean it's not like they would bother talking to Mike Schmidt about his use of amphetamines, and ask what he knew about them and their possible usage around the sport, yet Mitchell had Giambi basically repeat his entire steroid regimen again, which everyone already knew about. Now with Greenies, unlike HGH, there's legitimate evidence that it does improve athletic performance, but since the old-timers may have dabbled with these drugs, MLB doesn't want to look into it's past use, perhaps calling into question numbers or records of the past.

                                For what it's worth, while fans may complain about baseball not testing for HGH, there is also a possibility that the Amphetamines testing may not stop the users from taking them.
                                Yes amphetimines can heighten alertness/quick boost of energy and fight fatigue all short term. Continued use can cause, insomnia, weight loss, hallucinations, confusion, anxiety and some other undesirable effects.

                                You say it proven that amphetimines improve performance maybe so but the same could be said of steroids.

                                The jury is still out, theres another side that believes that steroid gives an edge to the user over those not using. Shortens recovery time from injuries, allows one to increase working out time, build lean muscle mass, add body weight which can in turn increase overall strength. Like speed it's believed that steroids can do damage if used over long periods.

                                No one is going back 30 or 40 years, yes it was wrong to use greenies, can't undo what happened in the past. So whats your take, since they used greenie years ago lets just let steroids slide. You know that could never be. Makes no sense, they were doing greenies years ago, why be concerned about steroids. It's here, the ban accept it.
                                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-20-2008, 07:31 PM.

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