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Reason why numbers and stats matter more in baseball than football

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  • Reason why numbers and stats matter more in baseball than football

    I was thinking that one of the reasons numbers in baseball matter more than football is because baseball stats are probably considred more of a measurement of a player's individual ability than football in the sense that with baseball it's mano y mano pitcher vs. hitter where football is more of a system type game with numbers helped out by guys around you such as recievers, line, qb. For example, this past year Brett Favre had a type of season that no 38 year old qb had had before yet the reason is believed to be Mike McCarthy having a good system and having better skill position players surrounding him. This year Tom Brady threw 50 touchdown passes after a previous career high of 28 yet the main reasons are considered to be the adition of Randy Moss and D'ante Stallworth and the coaches having him be more of a passer. Also, Rich Gannon in his mid 30s went from being a mediocre journeyman bouncing from team to team to a superstar pro bowler yet it is considered to be bccause of Jon Gruden having him in the right system with good recivers and linemen. So I think that even if a star position player in the NFL were to have strong links to steroid use I think one reason fans wouldn't be as upset is bcause they'd still consider their numbers a product of their system and guys around them more so than any steroid use.

  • #2
    I see your point, but I think you have your title backwards.
    46 wins to match last year's total

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    • #3
      In football, the skill positions rack up the fancy numbers, but the game is won and lost on the line(s).

      With the exception of a handful of truly special players, the skill positions are really a mass of interchangeable parts.

      I mean, just look at Denver's running game throughout their most recent period of success. Terrell Davis was damn good, so he was clearly the best performer they had over that group of seasons. But, they continually brought in mediocre-ish backs who put up 1,000 yard seasons. It's not rocket science.

      Look at Edgerin James, his departure was thought to be a huge blow to Indy - I'm still paying credit card bills with money from his fantasy owners during first season in 'Zona. Meanwhile, Addai is heralded as one of the top backs in the league.

      There's nothing analogous in baseball. The closest we can come is changing ballparks, but that's not even a "system." Perhaps the best example I can conjure is Eric Byrnes swiping 50 bags last year after leaving Oakland, a team that openly eschews basestealing.
      THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

      In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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      • #4
        I've gone ahead and changed the title, switching 'football' and 'baseball'. I have a feeling it's now what chrispw meant to say initially.
        WAMCO!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
          Perhaps the best example I can conjure is Eric Byrnes swiping 50 bags last year after leaving Oakland, a team that openly eschews basestealing.

          eschews:to avoid habitually especially on moral or practical grounds.


          Are you saying that Oakland don't run as much as the D Backs?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
            eschews:to avoid habitually especially on moral or practical grounds.


            Are you saying that Oakland don't run as much as the D Backs?
            Yes. Oakland is on record as being opposed to the stolen base. They generally don't bunt either. This is all discussed in Moneyball.

            It's the practical grounds on which the object, not the on the immorality of stealing...

            Edit: They've been last or second to last in the AL in SBs every season since the departure of Rickey Henderson except one (in which they ranked 10th in the AL).
            Last edited by digglahhh; 02-21-2008, 10:41 AM.
            THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

            In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

            Comment


            • #7
              The A's were dead last last season. And despite having guys like Vernon Wells, Alex Rios and Reed Johnson (who could probably all swipe 30 bags) the Jays were next-to-last, with Billy Beane disciple JP Riccardi at the helm.
              WAMCO!

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              • #8
                Baseball as a game is very different than basketball and football in that players take turns at bat and the defense controls the ball first. Baseball is a sequential game, a game played as a series on individual action by players. A player at the plate gets no help from his teammates. He is alone facing the pitcher alone. In football and basketball the offense work together to advance the ball. Everyone on offense works together as one entity. Baseball is not like this in this respect. I think that's way baseball records are more cherished. Baseball records are seen as being more accurate barometer of a player's skill. In football the running back requires quality linemen to block for him. A QB requires quality linemen and quality receives to put up great passing numbers.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                • #9
                  Add to it all the fact that there is no legitimate statistical way to measure the individual performance of linemen. In baseball, any player, regardless of position, will have many statistics to indicate the quality of his performance. Linemen, on the other hand, almost never collect figures in official NFL statistical categories except for the occasional fumble recovery.
                  "Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work. Four starting pitchers and one relief man ought to be enough. Pitch 'em every three days and you'd find they'd get control and good, strong arms."

                  -Cy Young

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                  • #10
                    I have to agree, as I think anyone does, that this is the case.

                    At the same time, there are some statistics in baseball that heavily rely on the performance of your teammates. It seems that they are moreso the 'traditional' statistics: Wins & losses, ERA, RBI, even a catcher's success rate at throwing out runners depends heavily on the pitcher getting the ball to the plate quickly.
                    WAMCO!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sean Casey View Post
                      Add to it all the fact that there is no legitimate statistical way to measure the individual performance of linemen. In baseball, any player, regardless of position, will have many statistics to indicate the quality of his performance. Linemen, on the other hand, almost never collect figures in official NFL statistical categories except for the occasional fumble recovery.
                      It's really a shame, and the fact that there is no thumbnail way to for the casual fan to determine who best players at the game's pivotal positions are is a big reason why most casual football fans have no idea how the game really works, and hence no idea what they are talking about.

                      Oddly enough, most casual baseball fans (and many professional baseball analysts) have no idea what they are talking about either. They don't have the same excuse...
                      THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                      In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        baseball players still benefit statistically with better talent around them. with a base stealer batting in front of him or a good hitter protecting him in the lineup, a hitter is probably going to put up better numbers. however, i agree with what everyone else has said about football being much more of a team game where players depend on the talent around them more.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                          I see your point, but I think you have your title backwards.
                          I'd agree. People say that the SF 49ers Dan Marino was a great QB, and I'd think that after 4 Super Bowls, he'd certainly be a great one, just as Pittsburgh Steelers' Terry Bradshaw would be considered one of the best with his 4 SB wins.

                          However, would Marino have had those 4 SB wins without Jerry Rice out there? There was another big name QB who also worked with Rice and credited him highly (he was a Mormon, last name "Young" I think).

                          If you believe in my philosophy that a QB = Starting Pitcher in baseball, then which fielder has greatly contributed to a pitcher's success? Besides, a QB is purely offense, whereas a pitcher is defense against the opponent scoring any runs.

                          For the runners in NFL, they can only get their yards if they're passed the ball. No guarantee who'll get those yards, and unlike the gridiron, you can have an "interference" and catch your opponent's ball then score the touchdown the opposite way.

                          I'm not too sure what the difference between a nose tackle, tailback and a halfback, but I do know that they all move around a lot more on the field than our guys in the hot corner, SS and 2B. It would also be kind of interesting (very interesting, might I add) to see a fielder get blitzed every now and then if he had the ball. Then again, my imagination does wander from time to time!
                          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                          Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                          THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                          Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                            It's really a shame, and the fact that there is no thumbnail way to for the casual fan to determine who best players at the game's pivotal positions are is a big reason why most casual football fans have no idea how the game really works, and hence no idea what they are talking about.

                            Oddly enough, most casual baseball fans (and many professional baseball analysts) have no idea what they are talking about either. They don't have the same excuse...
                            Professor Diggs, please educate us upon how the games of football and baseball work, so that the average fan here can better understand both games.

                            Classes have begun, sir!
                            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix View Post
                              I have to agree, as I think anyone does, that this is the case.

                              At the same time, there are some statistics in baseball that heavily rely on the performance of your teammates. It seems that they are moreso the 'traditional' statistics: Wins & losses, ERA, RBI, even a catcher's success rate at throwing out runners depends heavily on the pitcher getting the ball to the plate quickly.
                              I'd say that if a QB keeps passing the ball primarily to one player, that guy will get the most running yards. Everyone else gets far less.

                              In baseball, like when you had with Boston, Ortiz drove in Damon many times, you had a slugger who could hit doubles and a speedy guy who could score easily, sometimes from 1B. That was tailor made.

                              I'd say that it's team driven if you have a singles hitter (a Tony Gwynn type), but nobody can advance him to 2B or he can't steal. If nobody behind him can hit, then he'll never get any runs scored. If you have a guy who hits doubles, if nobody in front of him, then very few RBI despite the power to get the game-winning hits.

                              Unlike in football, I think that everyone on their team has an opportunity to get those stats (scoring or RBI). However, in football, the QB decides people's stats, based upon how successful guys are in advancing the play once they get the ball.
                              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                              Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                              THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                              Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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