07 Offseason kinda tame

[RubeBaker]

I mean that in a good way. It seems like the majority of the players signed for what they should. There were a few head scratchers (Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter) that were kind of iffy, but there really no outrageous signings that were doomed to failure from the start (Barry Zito, Juan Pierre). Overall, the market was pretty fair this year. Agree?

[Old Sweater]

I mean that in a good way. It seems like the majority of the players signed for what they should. There were a few head scratchers (Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter) that were kind of iffy, but there really no outrageous signings that were doomed to failure from the start (Barry Zito, Juan Pierre). Overall, the market was pretty fair this year. Agree?

Pierre was near his career numbers in 2007. These other players were not.



Career Pierre .301/.348/.374/97 runs/45 rbi's/54 sb's

Juan Pierre .293/ .331/.353/ 96 runs/ 41 rbi's/ 64 sb's/ 7.5 mil

Rafael Furcal .270/.333/.355/ 87 runs/ 47 rbi's/ 25 sb's/ 13.7 mil

Nomar_________.283/,328/.371/ 39 runs/ 59 rbi's/ 8.5 mil

Luis Gonzalez .278/.359/.433/ 70 runs/ 68 rbi's/ 7.1 mil

Then there is the real doomed failure of Jason Schmidt. Furcal had near the same numbers as Pierre at twice the price. Luis Gonzalez for the same money wasn't even near his career numbers and the Dodgers knew they weren't signing a spring chicken. Nomar had a awful year, 59 rbi's for a player who's suppose to provide more power, same go's for Furcal.

The Dodgers almost got exactly what they paid for unless they thought the little guy was going to turn into a power hitter for 2007. There is a reason that 4 different teams have played Juan Pierre about every game of the season at the top of the order and that is for the 97 runs he scores every year. The contract was just a good business deal for Pierre, the extra money wasn't going to give him more pop in his bat or make him a more patient hitter.

[RubeBaker]

The contract was just a good business deal for Pierre, the extra money wasn't going to give him more pop in his bat or make him a more patient hitter.

But that's kind of my point. It wasn't going to make Zito a better pitcher either. But with Pierre, is he really $48 over 5 years? Especially with a career OPS+ of 84? The fact that he did exactly as people expected him too means that they paid a ton of money for someone they knew wouldn't be that productive.

He's not a horrible player, he's just not worth the money he makes.

[YOUgodofwalks]

But that's kind of my point. It wasn't going to make Zito a better pitcher either. But with Pierre, is he really $48 over 5 years? Especially with a career OPS+ of 84?

Since all we can do it compare him to other people, I'd say he's being paid fine. OPS+ in this case might not take in his whole value. He's a very good leadoff hitter and is one of the best basestealers in the league. If you value stolen bases, he is worth it because it's hard to find that big of a stolen base threat for the money he's getting.

[Old Sweater]

But that's kind of my point. It wasn't going to make Zito a better pitcher either. But with Pierre, is he really $48 over 5 years? Especially with a career OPS+ of 84? The fact that he did exactly as people expected him too means that they paid a ton of money for someone they knew wouldn't be that productive.

He's not a horrible player, he's just not worth the money he makes.

Even in the bang for the buck value, Pierre had a better year for the Dodgers then Nomar/Furcal(twice the pay/same production)/Schmidt/Gonzalez.


That is just the Dodgers, go through all the, sub-par/injury years, of larger 2007 contracts and Pierre for 162 games at 9.6mil is far from the top of the list and a bargain compared to some.

[sturg1dj]

you know whats sick about Pierre......he's gonna be the first player with 3000 hits that doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame

and its going to be like 3300 hits and hes going to score a ton of runs....and play for as many teams as Kenny Lofton....and be a career .290 hitter with a career .320 OBP

[OleMissCub]

Juan Pierre is also the owner of the biggest noodle arm in professional baseball. His arm strength is about as strong an asset as Pedro's bat speed.

[sturg1dj]

Juan Pierre is also the owner of the biggest noodle arm in professional baseball. His arm strength is about as strong an asset as Pedro's bat speed.

i agree with that


if you think about Juan Pierre is kind a stats tease....he gets 200 hits every year and steals 50 bases yet he does it by getting nearly 700 AB's and getting caught 20 times every year. If he keeps going the way he is then he will be a hall of famer....and he really shouldn't


and yes he has a terrible arm....maybe the worst...but at least he doesn't look like a girl when throwing like Johnny Damon!

[OleMissCub]

if you think about Juan Pierre is kind a stats tease....he gets 200 hits every year and steals 50 bases yet he does it by getting nearly 700 AB's and getting caught 20 times every year. If he keeps going the way he is then he will be a hall of famer....and he really shouldn't

Pierre is the epitome of a stats compiler in MLB whose value is extremely low. His WARP1 is a whopping 23.8 after 8 FULL seasons. Compare him to Kenny Lofton, who after his first 8 seasons had a WARP1 of 45.3. Lofton at the same time in his career was literally double the value of Pierre.

[sturg1dj]

Pierre is the epitome of a stats compiler in MLB whose value is extremely low. His WARP1 is a whopping 23.8 after 8 FULL seasons. Compare him to Kenny Lofton, who after his first 8 seasons had a WARP1 of 45.3. Lofton at the same time in his career was literally double the value of Pierre.

I can't wait until 15-20 years from now when this board is going to be going nuts because he is getting into the hall of fame....haha


his only pluses will be 3000+ hits and 500+ steals

and 14000 AB's haha

[Pere]

Of course, the other component of Pierre's value to the Dodgers, beyond real production: he's an "exciting" and popular player. It may be debatable whether his highlight-show appearances and "name" are worth what he's being paid for them, but the Dodgers certainly do see value there.

[sturg1dj]

true....and he scores 100 runs a season.


to get the most out of him he needs to play in a big ballpark and preferably DH with lots of talent around him to hit him in......maybe Detroit...if they didn't have Sheffield and the other mashers.

[Old Sweater]

true....and he scores 100 runs a season.


to get the most out of him he needs to play in a big ballpark and preferably DH with lots of talent around him to hit him in......maybe Detroit...if they didn't have Sheffield and the other mashers.

Pierre didn't like the ponderosa here in Colorado where the ball hangs a little longer. Pierre said his singles were turning into outs. His best years were with the Marlins.

Pierre reminds me of a scaled down version of Willie McGee or Mickey Rivers.

[RubeBaker]

true....and he scores 100 runs a season.

Actually, his career average is 97 runs per season. I know it may sound petty, but he hasn't scored 100+ runs in the last three years, nor has he hit .300 in that same time span. When a guy hits leadoff and gets around 200 hits per year, you would expect him to at least beable to score 100 times. But I did some calculations ((Hits+BB)/Runs) to see how efficient he was at scoring. Here are some comparisons of other leadoff men (all data is for last season):

Jimmy Rollins- scored 53% of the time he was on base last season
Curtis Granderson- 51%
Alfonso Soriano- 48%
Jose Reyes- 44%
Johnny Damon- 44%
Grady Sizemore- 43%
Juan Pierre- 42%

Along with the fact that he has been in the top 5 in outs and has led the league twice in making outs, he really wastes a lot of scoring opportunities on the basepaths.

I can't wait until 15-20 years from now when this board is going to be going nuts because he is getting into the hall of fame....haha


his only pluses will be 3000+ hits and 500+ steals

and 14000 AB's haha

500 steals- ok, he has 389 steals now and assuming he doesn't hit a figurative wall now that he'll be turning 30, he should be able to get it. But even with 500 steals, he'l still only be 37th all time. He'll need 584 to make it to the top 20, and that may be iffy. Besides, stolen bases alone haven't gotten andybody into the hall.

3000 hits- at age 29, with 8 years in the bigs, he isn't halfway to that with 1440 hits to this point. He may make 2500, but I think 3000 is kind of a long shot.

Plus, the whole hall of fame argument can be summed up by this: 84 career OPS+. He is just not that good of a player.

P.S. Can a mod change the name of this thread to "Is Juan Pierre Good?" Thanks, it's a good debate.

[sturg1dj]

Actually, his career average is 97 runs per season. I know it may sound petty, but he hasn't scored 100+ runs in the last three years, nor has he hit .300 in that same time span. When a guy hits leadoff and gets around 200 hits per year, you would expect him to at least beable to score 100 times. But I did some calculations ((Hits+BB)/Runs) to see how efficient he was at scoring. Here are some comparisons of other leadoff men (all data is for last season):

Jimmy Rollins- scored 53% of the time he was on base last season
Curtis Granderson- 51%
Alfonso Soriano- 48%
Jose Reyes- 44%
Johnny Damon- 44%
Grady Sizemore- 43%
Juan Pierre- 42%

Along with the fact that he has been in the top 5 in outs and has led the league twice in making outs, he really wastes a lot of scoring opportunities on the basepaths.



500 steals- ok, he has 389 steals now and assuming he doesn't hit a figurative wall now that he'll be turning 30, he should be able to get it. But even with 500 steals, he'l still only be 37th all time. He'll need 584 to make it to the top 20, and that may be iffy. Besides, stolen bases alone haven't gotten andybody into the hall.

3000 hits- at age 29, with 8 years in the bigs, he isn't halfway to that with 1440 hits to this point. He may make 2500, but I think 3000 is kind of a long shot.

Plus, the whole hall of fame argument can be summed up by this: 84 career OPS+. He is just not that good of a player.

P.S. Can a mod change the name of this thread to "Is Juan Pierre Good?" Thanks, it's a good debate.

I am not arguing that he belongs in the hall or that he is good.....I am actually pointing out that because of the system in place where 3000 means hall of fame that he has a better chance than he should to get in...thats all.