The main reason for the HR records

[Old Sweater]

The stroke.

[Zagi-CRO]

I think a ball-feeling /is it ok on English?/
/Osjećaj za lopticu... /

[BoSox Rule]

There is no doubt that Bonds might have the most perfect swing of all-time.

[sturg1dj]

wow, that is awesome


Bonds had it, Williams had it, Griffey had it


McGwire and Canseco did not so they had to bulk up


there are two types of HR hitters....bulkers and sweet swingers and in the latter part of his career Bonds combined them and the rest is history


for me though the most overrated type of player is the bulker...the Killebrew, McGwire, Canseco, Frank Howard type who were just huge and hit .260 and hit 40 HR's and struck out 150 times

[skyking162]

For me though the most overrated type of player is the bulker...the Killebrew, McGwire, Canseco, Frank Howard type who were just huge and hit .260 and hit 40 HR's and struck out 150 times

Overrated how? You're not as impressed because "bulk" isn't an admirable skill? Or you don't think that type of line is very valuable? I'm fine with the first, but a .256/.376/.509 line like Killebrew put up (low AVG, high SO, high BB, high power) tends still to be underrated in terms of value. Same with McGwire -- he might not be a HoFamer because of PEDs, but he sure is in terms of on-field performance.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Overrated how? You're not as impressed because "bulk" isn't an admirable skill? Or you don't think that type of line is very valuable? I'm fine with the first, but a .256/.376/.509 line like Killebrew put up (low AVG, high SO, high BB, high power) tends still to be underrated in terms of value. Same with McGwire -- he might not be a HoFamer because of PEDs, but he sure is in terms of on-field performance.

Do you mean his defensive skills, or just his hitting?

I think his records are tainted because of this PED use. But you can say that about almost every big player nowadays.

[sturg1dj]

Overrated how? You're not as impressed because "bulk" isn't an admirable skill? Or you don't think that type of line is very valuable? I'm fine with the first, but a .256/.376/.509 line like Killebrew put up (low AVG, high SO, high BB, high power) tends still to be underrated in terms of value. Same with McGwire -- he might not be a HoFamer because of PEDs, but he sure is in terms of on-field performance.

there is a type of player that can do everything well, and there are some that can do only a few things well. The problem is that today we put power on a pedestal. Huge power guys are put in a category with the greats even though many could not his with any average, struckout all of the time, and could not field a position. This to me is the the definition of overrated.

Killebrew is a hall of famer, but he did not deserve 1st ballot

McGwire MAY be a hall of famer but his career did not warrant 1st ballot

I would argue Sosa over McGwire at the moment...but I may not be thinking straight.

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

Killebrew is a hall of famer, but he did not deserve 1st ballot

McGwire MAY be a hall of famer but his career did not warrant 1st ballot

A lot of people say this, and I don't get it at all.

Let's say I had a vote and I felt this way about a particular player. So...I think he's a HOF, but I don't vote for him because it would be wrong for him to get in on the first ballot?

So that means that in that situation, one would vote "No" in the player's first year of eligibility, then "Yes" in year two and beyond?

If HOF voters are voting this way, they are bigger idiots than I already think they are.

[sturg1dj]

A lot of people say this, and I don't get it at all.

Let's say I had a vote and I felt this way about a particular player. So...I think he's a HOF, but I don't vote for him because it would be wrong for him to get in on the first ballot?

So that means that in that situation, one would vote "No" in the player's first year of eligibility, then "Yes" in year two and beyond?

If HOF voters are voting this way, they are bigger idiots than I already think they are.

at this point, yes, because of the precedent set in the past.

if you hear Killebrew talk about baseball and the hall of fame you can tell how protective he is over his place in history, and I think it because he didn't get into the hall right away.

If you want to rethink the whole idea (or go back and keep the ideal) of the hall of fame then sure. If first ballot HOFers meant nothing then I would then be for more strict Hall of Fame voting. In this case I am not. There has to be something that separates the Legends from the ones who were just great and the greats to the ones that were just very, very, good. Which, thinking about this I think I spoke against this as one point...looks like I am a flip-flopper


a .260 hitter with 500 HR's belongs in the Hall of Fame but not in the same way as Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Babe Ruth or the other true Legends

[cardsfanatic]

I would argue Sosa over McGwire at the moment...but I may not be thinking straight.

Wow, someone talking about overrated players then they take Sosa over McGwire... just, wow. Big Mac may not have hit for a high average (neither did Sosa) and he may have been a lot of power, but at least he drew walks and got on base and retired with an OPS+ in the top 15 all-time and was immensely valuable over his entire career.

Sosa, to me, is the very definition of "bulker" -- the type of player you just said you hated. McGwire hit homeruns before he bulked up. Sosa did not.

McGwire
1 point better in BA than league average for his career
62 points better in OBP than league average for his career
180 points better in SLG than league average for his career
162 career OPS+ (12th all-time)

Sosa
5 points better in BA than league average for his career
6 points better in OBP than league average for his career
112 points better in SLG than league average for his career
128 career OPS+ (190th all-time)

And they both played corner positions so defense couldn't even sway that landslide.

[sturg1dj]

Wow, someone talking about overrated players then they take Sosa over McGwire... just, wow. Big Mac may not have hit for a high average (neither did Sosa) and he may have been a lot of power, but at least he drew walks and got on base and retired with an OPS+ in the top 15 all-time and was immensely valuable over his entire career.

Sosa, to me, is the very definition of "bulker" -- the type of player you just said you hated. McGwire hit homeruns before he bulked up. Sosa did not.

McGwire
1 point better in BA than league average for his career
62 points better in OBP than league average for his career
180 points better in SLG than league average for his career
162 career OPS+ (12th all-time)

Sosa
5 points better in BA than league average for his career
6 points better in OBP than league average for his career
112 points better in SLG than league average for his career
128 career OPS+ (190th all-time)

And they both played corner positions so defense couldn't even sway that landslide.

the perspective that I take is pre-crazy weight gain Sosa was a 30-30 guy...not a hall-of-famer...but he was good. After the weight gain he had 4 straight 50 HR seasons including 3 60 and then added a 49. He also had some of the most impressive RBI seasons of the last 30 years. Add to the fact that for most of his career he was decent on the bases then that is the basis for my argument.

McGwire was always a bulker. before his bigger bulking he was still a 1 dimensional player.

the more I find myself going into debates on player greatness and hall of fame the more I see myself rejecting statistics and sabrmetrics.

[sturg1dj]

and further thinking about why I have such a hatred for the masher type is because I grew up with the Tigers of the early 90's. Now even though none of the players on those teams equaled a Killabrew or a McGwire they were filled by 30 HR guys who struck out 150 times such as Cecil Fielder, Mickey Tettleton, Rob Deer, Pete Incavilia and others.

[NickU]

How was McGwire always a bulker? When he came into the league he was a stick and hit 49 homers...


That doesn't look like a bulker to me



That's a bulker

[NickU]

When I look at these pictures I wonder how everyone could have been so blind... myself included. I mean it's a horrible way to decide someone was using PEDs, and by no means is it proof. Natural growth is normal from 18-35, of course your going to get bigger, especially when you have access to world's best trainers, equipment, etc. and all you do for six months is work out. But, there is a cut-off when guys start to approach Paul Bunyan like-stature when you have to start raising eyebrows.

[Macker]

So that means that in that situation, one would vote "No" in the player's first year of eligibility, then "Yes" in year two and beyond?

I'm waiting for the day when most voters do this, then a star player doesn't get enough support to remain on the ballot for a second year.