Washington Baseball

[sturg1dj]

this just popped in my head...help me out if you can


Washington D.C. had a team for a long time. Also for a long time they were all alone in the market since the Orioles were the Browns. Yet, with the market all to themselves the Sens could not keep up financially and usually finished right above the Browns.

So when they decided to move the ultimate small market nightmare team...the Expos they decided to move them to D.C. while another team was basically already there.

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE???????

was there no other strong market to move too?

[blacksilverfan12]

Wasn't Vegas considered? I remember Richmond (Virginia) was considered. I would think Vegas would have a great market

[AutographCollector]

If we're talking the last few yrs, in my opinion the Nats have sold more tickets that the O's have. Actually with the Nats new stadium opening this season... they should sell much much more.

[Old Sweater]

I still wonder why it took Colorado so long to get MLB. I'll tell you, it was very frustrating to see Canada get 2 teams with the history of Denver Baseball with George Tebeau running things.

Comings and goings

Colorado's baseball history can be traced to 1862 and George Tebeau, who organized a team called the Denvers.

"George Tebeau was not only the father of Colorado baseball, he also was the co-founder of the American League, along with Ban Johnson and Charles Comiskey, in 1900," said Jay Sanford, a prominent Denver area baseball historian.

Joe Tinker, who became part of the famous Tinker to Evers to Chance infield combination of the Chicago Cubs, played on Tebeau's 1900 Denver team.

Baseball historian Duane Smith said: "You could see baseball just about everywhere in the state. Just as it is today, when you had a baseball team, you were coming of age as a town or settlement. It was a sign their community was becoming civilized. The Rockies have meant that to Denver, only in a much larger scale."

Historian Mark Foster wrote: "To be accepted as a member of a baseball club, one usually had to be responsible and a morally upright citizen."

Up to and through World War II, games in Denver were played at Merchants Park, located at 600 S. Broadway. The Denver Post Tournament held there once featured the great Satchel Paige, but the White Elephants and pitcher Pistol Pete Albright were the local fans' favorites.

Sen. Edwin C. Johnson spearheaded an effort to form a Single-A Western League in 1947, and the Bears returned. Howsam took over the ownership the following year and Denver's minor-league run continued through the ownerships of Gerald Phipps and John Dikeou until 1992, when the minor-league era ended on Sept. 6, when the Zephyrs lost 7-6 in 10 innings in Des Moines, Iowa.

Along the way Denver's fans watched many of the game's future stars. The Yankees' farm teams of 1955-57, when the Bears joined the Triple-A ranks, featured manager Ralph Houk, second baseman Bobby Richardson, shortstop Tony Kubek and outfielder Whitey Herzog. Marv Throneberry hit 42 home runs for the Bears in 1956, establishing Denver as a launching pad. Houk was among a long list of notable managers that included Andy Cohen, Billy Martin, Charlie Metro, Vern Rapp and Felipe Alou.

In later years, Bill Freehan, Dick McAuliffe and Steve Boros played here before joining the Detroit Tigers. Later it was Andre Dawson and Tim Raines preparing for time with the Montreal Expos. Then came Eric Davis and Barry Larkin, later to star with the Cincinnati Reds. Joey Meyer, a Milwaukee Brewers farmhand, blasted a home run estimated at more than 500 feet into the third deck at Mile High Stadium.

Meyer's shot came in 1987. Young's historical home run six years later launched the Rockies on their way. Today, the team comes home to play its first-ever NLCS game at Coors Field, a momentous occasion in a long and distinguished history of baseball in Colorado

Then us Colorado fans were team teased a few years with our resident billionaire kicking around the idea of buying the A's from screwy Chucky.

In 1977, oilman Marvin Davis entered in discussions with Charles Finley to buy the Oakland Athletics and move them to Denver. He tried again after the 1979 season. Way back in 1959, Branch Rickey promoted a third major league that was called the Continental League. But after construction of the South Stands at Mile High Stadium to meet attendance requirements, the idea fizzled. Minor-league attendance dwindled, and Howsam departed for the big leagues.

[sharrock]

was there no other strong market to move too?

It made sense because the DC of the Senators is not the DC of the (new) Nationals. DC has grown immensely since the Sens left town (twice), developing a media market and suburban dwellers. DC was, in the past, essentially the district with not much surrounding market, compared to today anyway. Remember, its not just population but you need companies for sponsorships and to buy ads or you are back to the Montreal nightmare.

DC is now large enough to provide all those things.

There actually were very few markets that were alternatives. Las Vegas is out due to gambling. Portland showed some interest but didnt have the money to drive a stadium effort and a salient ownership group. There was talk of San Anotnio but its a smallish media market and you'd have to deal with two owners instead of just Angelos.

Then you get down to risky regions like the Carolinas, western New York (Buffalo/Rochester which have profitable minor league teams). None of these second or third tier regions put forth proposals for a stadium.ownership group.

I just wish the Expos had become something more exciting than a team named the Nationals with generic colors. The 'old-baseball' theme is too forced and I'd have preferred a more original and fun concept.

[sturg1dj]

It made sense because the DC of the Senators is not the DC of the (new) Nationals. DC has grown immensely since the Sens left town (twice), developing a media market and suburban dwellers. DC was, in the past, essentially the district with not much surrounding market, compared to today anyway. Remember, its not just population but you need companies for sponsorships and to buy ads or you are back to the Montreal nightmare.

DC is now large enough to provide all those things.

There actually were very few markets that were alternatives. Las Vegas is out due to gambling. Portland showed some interest but didnt have the money to drive a stadium effort and a salient ownership group. There was talk of San Anotnio but its a smallish media market and you'd have to deal with two owners instead of just Angelos.

Then you get down to risky regions like the Carolinas, western New York (Buffalo/Rochester which have profitable minor league teams). None of these second or third tier regions put forth proposals for a stadium.ownership group.

I just wish the Expos had become something more exciting than a team named the Nationals with generic colors. The 'old-baseball' theme is too forced and I'd have preferred a more original and fun concept.

Vegas being out because of gambling is silly. Yes gambling is easier to do there, but there are casinos everywhere. Also if you want to bet on sports its not like you need to go to vegas to do it...especially with the internet.

I understand looking at it in a historical context it makes some sense since the largest scandal involved in baseball was game fixing...but at the same time with the technology around today gambling can be done anywhere.

there are casinos in Detroit now does that mean the players are more likely to bet...I don't think so.

Baseball should look at it like this. Las Vegas is the fastest growing city in the nation and has been for years and should continue. there is vast open area away from the strip where they could build a stadium which could cater to the growing number of residents and tourists. Sure a player can get into a lot of trouble in Las Vegas...but I would imagine you can get into a lot of trouble in any major league city.


Now you mention that the D.C./Baltimore market is now much larger...but is it large enough for two teams?

and I understand the Nats may be outselling the Orioles...but the Orioles were there first and right now they are both terrible, so that really isn't an issue.

I also know we will see sell-outs tonight and for a while now that they have a new stadium...but we will see how long that lasts.

and btw..the stadium deal they got from the city...thats crazy!

[sharrock]

Vegas being out because of gambling is silly. Yes gambling is easier to do there, but there are casinos everywhere. Also if you want to bet on sports its not like you need to go to vegas to do it...especially with the internet.

I understand looking at it in a historical context it makes some sense since the largest scandal involved in baseball was game fixing...but at the same time with the technology around today gambling can be done anywhere.

there are casinos in Detroit now does that mean the players are more likely to bet...I don't think so.

Baseball should look at it like this. Las Vegas is the fastest growing city in the nation and has been for years and should continue. there is vast open area away from the strip where they could build a stadium which could cater to the growing number of residents and tourists. Sure a player can get into a lot of trouble in Las Vegas...but I would imagine you can get into a lot of trouble in any major league city.


Now you mention that the D.C./Baltimore market is now much larger...but is it large enough for two teams?

and I understand the Nats may be outselling the Orioles...but the Orioles were there first and right now they are both terrible, so that really isn't an issue.

I also know we will see sell-outs tonight and for a while now that they have a new stadium...but we will see how long that lasts.

and btw..the stadium deal they got from the city...thats crazy!

I agree that gambling is everywhere but my point was that having a team in Vegas is out because MLB would not allow it. Unless Vegas grows toa size that MLB sees a chance to grab a large market, there will not be a team in Vegas.

I do think the DC/Baltimore area is big enough for two teams. But I'll also admit it might be shaky at times when both teams are pretty bad, like now.

I'll be checking out the game tonight to get a look at the new stadium. From what I hear, it will be a great baseball facility.

[bluezebra]

The fan base in the first two franchises was small. Many people who could afford to go to games were Government workers who had allegiance to the visting teams, and normally only went went when those teams (American League) were in town. Of course, before Jackie Robinson, there were no African American MLB players, so few Blacks attended games. Also, the Black community was a low-income area, and most couldn't afford to go to games.

Washington, DC is further from Baltimore (41 miles), as Los Angeles is from Anaheim (26 miles), so 'proximity' is not an excuse. And DC can draw from Northern VA.

Bob

[bailiff]

This is wild speculation, but I am predicting that in the next 10 years, the greater San Antonio, San Marcos, Austin area will have a MLB team, with the Ryan's owning it.

[sturg1dj]

Washington, DC is further from Baltimore (41 miles), as Los Angeles is from Anaheim (26 miles), so 'proximity' is not an excuse. And DC can draw from Northern VA.

Bob

I get what you are saying...and this is the only point I will disagree with because there are a whole lot more people in the LA/Anaheim area then the D.C./Baltimore/Northern Virginia area

[Scoops]

I still wonder why it took Colorado so long to get MLB. I'll tell you, it was very frustrating to see Canada get 2 teams with the history of Denver Baseball with George Tebeau running things.

Yeah. Toronto and Montreal certainly don't have much baseball history.

Willie Keeler? Nap Lajoie? Carl Hubbell? Jackie Robinson? Who are these people?

[sturg1dj]

I feel that D.C. was given the team because of how it is our capital and it is a symbol of America, so it should have a team that plays America's game.

This is silly to me though, and no offense to the fans in D.C. who love their Nats.


I will say this...the fans in Washington better not be too patient with the spending of Lerner....they gave the gift of a stadium with unprecedented tax funding, so he better build a winner soon.

[Pere]

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE???????

was there no other strong market to move too?

The Washington metro area--with NoVa, and not including Baltimore--was the most lucrative market not represented in MLB. Selig was dying to put a team there, for years. The DC government could have driven a much harder bargain on the stadium and still got the team.