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  • Putting the pitcher in the #8 spot?

    Last week I heard Joe Buck discuss the practice now employed by St. Louis and by Milwaukee --of putting the pitcher in the #8 spot of the batting order instead of the traditional #9 spot.

    Tony La Russa gives as part of the rationale his desire to get Albert Pujols to bat in the first inning -- when the opposing pitcher is likely to be most vulnerable. So La Russa puts Pujols in the #3 spot in his lineup.

    He expects the pitcher will likely make the last out of the inning, several times in the course of a game. So he bats his pitcher eighth, and puts in the #9 spot a player who would be a typical lead-off hitter. This #9 hitter doesn't need a high batting average if he takes a lot of walks and has a high OBP. If the #9 hitter leads off a later inning, then Pujols is essentially batting "clean-up" in those innings -- which is where his manager wants him to be.

    This might be a good practice for other teams, especially if they have some power at the top of the batting order (#1 or #2 hitters in the lineup). Is this a bad idea, or does it make some sense?
    40
    Good idea, at least for some teams
    45.00%
    18
    Stupid idea -- pitcher must always hit last
    17.50%
    7
    #8 or #9 -- It really makes no difference
    37.50%
    15
    Last edited by Appling; 05-10-2008, 09:36 AM.
    Luke

  • #2
    Theres no right or wrong answer. In some teams it works, in others it wont.
    Overall it probably wont make much of a difference.

    Comment


    • #3
      Is LaRussa right to bat his pitcher in the eight slot?
      by John Beamer
      October 01, 2007

      Tony LaRussa (TLR to his buddies) is a manager who engenders emotions of either love or hate … okay, perhaps more hate than love, unless you happen to support the Red Birds that is. A visit to Busch III can quickly descend into a snoozefest as LaRussa changes pitchers with impunity: The joke is that if LaRussa were to be fired by Walt Jockerty then AT&T would see a huge dent in its profit.

      That LaRussa was caught driving under the influence should have caused far more of an outcry than it did. Such behaviour is abhorrent and irresponsible and as team manager he needs to take his obligations to his players and the fans a lot more seriously. Let me tell you, had a similar incident occurred in EPL Soccer with Manchester United boss, Sir Alex Ferguson, his position would have been untenable. Anyway, that is another debate for a different publication.

      Whatever your thoughts about LaRussa as a person there is no doubt that he is a brilliant manager and an astute tactician who inspires players and has been the driving force behind St Louis’ ascent to the pinnacle of baseball. That is why when LaRussa does something that you should stand up and take notice.

      And that is exactly what THT proprietor Dave Studeman did when he asked me to have a look at Tony’s latest wheeze, namely the benefit of switching the eighth and ninth hitters (yes, that's the pitcher) around.


      The theory

      So why on earth would TLR decide to move his worst batter (the pitcher) down the order? Surely it is conventional wisdom that the pitcher should bat last because he is the least effective hitter?

      Not so quick. The theory is that by batting the pitcher in the number eight slot then the number nine hitter has a better chance of getting on base and being driven in by the number two to four hitters (or specifically Pujols in this case). Baseball Think Factory had a thread on the issue a few weeks back that talked through the rationale.


      Tools on the interweb

      First it needs to be said that this isn’t an especially new topic. Line-up optimisation has been speculated about for ages and many seminal pieces have been penned on the subject. Tom Tango, MGL and Andy Dolphin found, in The Book, that optimizing the line-up would be worth max a win and half during a season, though the practicalities dictate that it will likely be less than that.

      Those of you who want to read more about the topic are invited to point your browsers here, here, here and here.

      There is an easy answer to this question and that involves a trip to David Pinto’s excellent Baseball Musings website. David has a line-up tool that we can use to decipher how many runs LaRussa is costing or saving with his batting order shuffle.


      A new tool from the THT bag of tricks

      However, that won’t a column maketh. Over the past few years I’ve been working deep underground in a secret bunker located 14 nautical miles west of Area 51, just before the location of the last sighting of Rumplestiltzkin, building the spreadsheet to end all spreadsheets—it is one small step for a man, one giant leap for Excel.

      This spreadsheet takes a batting order, any batting order, and a ton of assumptions for running and fielding and spits out loads of cool things such as a run expectancy, win expectancy (for two teams), run frequency, base-out state frequency, lead-off frequency and Leverage Index, among other things (in a quiet moment it can also make a nifty latte too). Take any batting order and I can tell you all the items mentioned above.

      The full version of the model tips the scales at a monstrous 200Mb and is a pain in the ass to use (calculating a bespoke Leverage Index is what does it), however, I do have a cut down 15 meg version that I will be releasing as a compendium to the THT 2008 Annual. Yes, on 1 December this technology will be available to you, Joe Public, for the price of a few sheets of paper plastered with quality baseball analysis.

      So what’s all this got to do with Tony LaRussa and his line-up? Everything. I’m going to use my Markov to work out the pros and cons of LaRussa’s strategy.


      The situation

      The St. Louis Cardinals have had a topsy-turvy year for sure. Before we go any further let’s take a look at production from each batting slot.

      Slot BA OBP SLG OPS
      1st 0.276 0.317 0.339 0.656
      2nd 0.301 0.365 0.494 0.859
      3rd 0.32 0.422 0.561 0.983
      4th 0.253 0.326 0.403 0.729
      5th 0.24 0.311 0.354 0.665
      6th 0.274 0.328 0.458 0.786
      7th 0.257 0.326 0.363 0.689
      8th 0.263 0.317 0.341 0.658
      9th 0.258 0.301 0.36 0.661
      Surprisingly perhaps there isn’t that much difference between the eighth and ninth slots in terms of production. There are two reasons for this. One, LaRussa has batted the pitcher in the eighth hole for some part of the season, and two, St Louis actually has the best hitting pitching in the NL. Check out the table below for cumulative team pitching:

      Team BA OBP SLG OPS
      STL 0.198 0.231 0.245 0.476
      LAD 0.148 0.195 0.215 0.41
      NYM 0.161 0.203 0.193 0.396
      PHI 0.158 0.202 0.19 0.392
      MIL 0.152 0.173 0.213 0.386
      CHC 0.158 0.171 0.211 0.382
      ARI 0.146 0.154 0.226 0.38
      COL 0.148 0.205 0.17 0.375
      SDP 0.151 0.186 0.188 0.374
      ATL 0.156 0.186 0.189 0.375
      FLA 0.124 0.17 0.188 0.358
      PIT 0.141 0.164 0.165 0.329
      CIN 0.12 0.154 0.144 0.298
      SFG 0.11 0.133 0.161 0.294
      HOU 0.117 0.15 0.14 0.29
      WSN 0.104 0.137 0.133 0.27
      TLR first swapped his pitcher to the number eight slot on 4 August and the hurler has remained their ever since. To date than means that pitchers have hit at number eight over 50 times this season; let’s try to work out the impact on wins of employing this model (pitcher hitting eighth) since the start of the season.


      Pinto is at the plate

      First up is David Pinto’s lineup tool. This is not David’s tool per se; rather he coded it based on work by Cyril Morong at Beyond the Boxscore. The concept is simple. You enter the OBP and SLG of all nine players and the algorithm spits out the runs per game for each batting combination.

      For the Cardinals I select the batting stats for each of the first seven slots in the order as they come. The eighth and ninth slots are more tricky as both these include a sprinkling of pitchers. What I did was take the hitting stats for pitchers and from that back out numbers for the remaining at bats in these two slots. This gives a reasonably pure measure of the quality of pitcher batting and also a true representation of the production from the number 8 slot in the classic sense of the term. I elected not to omit pinch hitters because I wasn't sure how they were distributed across the line-up. Unsurprisingly all the data came from the legendary Baseball Reference website.

      Here are the data for each batting position as used in the model:

      St Louis Cardinals
      Slot AVG OBP SLG OPS
      1 0.276 0.321 0.339 0.66
      2 0.301 0.368 0.494 0.862
      3 0.32 0.427 0.561 0.988
      4 0.253 0.33 0.403 0.732
      5 0.24 0.314 0.354 0.668
      6 0.274 0.328 0.458 0.786
      7 0.257 0.328 0.363 0.691
      8 0.263 0.321 0.341 0.662
      9 0.198 0.233 0.247 0.48
      If we plug the OBP and SLG numbers into Pinto’s tool we get 4.50 runs per game. What if we swap the eight and nine hitters around (in other words put the pitcher in the number eight slot)?

      Runs per game increase to 4.59! Over the course of the season that equates to 14 runs or 1.5 wins just by swapping the pitcher.

      In fact, Pinto provides two formulas. The one we used above was based on 98-02 data; the second is based on data from 1959-2004. Interestingly if we use the latter time period we get the opposite conclusion: the classic line-up rpg is 4.543, reverse eight and nine we get 4.539—a drop of 0.6 runs per season. What's going on?

      The explanation isn't trivial. The 98-02 period was an era of hitting which means that the number nine batter is more likely to get driven in than the number eight batter (the top of the order is coming up), which on the fine margins we're working with tips the balance. Also the tool is based on regression equations and may lack the accuracy to answer questions as to where you should bat individual hitters, especially at the margins. Let’s turn to the Markov to see if we can substantiate our conclusion.


      Markov

      Before we leap in let’s check the model. The Cardinals have scored 4.56 rpg this season (adjusting for extra innings and home victories). If you plug the batting data into the Markov what do you get? 4.57—a close and credible result. So far, so good.

      We must replicate the same adjustment and take out all non-pitcher at-bats from the number nine slot. If we do this rpg (actually runs per nine innings) fall to 4.29. This is considerably beneath Pinto’s number but feels correct in the context of a 4.56 rpg average. Anyway, 4.29 rpg is the baseline we measure other strategies against. (One reason for the discrepancy is that the regression equation used in Pinto's analysis may correct for the effect of pinch hitting and/or may be skewed by the DH).

      What do we get if we swap the number eight and nine hitters? Runs scored edges up to 4.294, which equates to 0.6 runs per season, or 0.06 wins—a small number but an increase none the less.

      Okay, what about if we put the hurler in the number seven spot? We get an even higher production—4.299 rpg, for an increase of 1.4 runs per season! Let’s continue. Moving the pitcher to the sixth slot then we are at breakeven compared to the nine hole.

      What is going on? Why do we get these odd results?

      This is largely a foible of the Cardinals' line-up. Hitters 4,5 and 6 are woeful compared to what the middle of the order should look like. And as the Cards have the best hitting pitchers the difference in production between the pitcher and the four slot isn’t that great (see table above). The offense revolves around Pujols and there are two factors to contend with. First, Pujols gets on base more than most so you need decent hitters after him to drive him in. Second, we want Pujols up when runners are on base and batting the pitcher ninth is likely to mean fewer runners on for big Al.

      In turns out that the optimal sweet spot for these two opposing forces is the number seven spot, to the tune of 1.4 runs per season. This is despite the number seven hitter getting about 4% more at-bats over the course of a season than a number nine hitter does. However, once you add in the effect of pinch hitters then this gap will close some.

      Those of you who have read The Book may be jumping up and down at the moment itching to email me and point out that I can’t be right. The Book concluded that for NL teams it did make sense to bat the pitcher eighth to the tune of 1.9 runs per year. Moving the pitcher back to number seven is breakeven.

      Looking at the NL as a whole and using the same model that we used for the Cardinals we can replicate (or at least attempt to) these results. My calculations suggest that moving an average pitcher to the eighth hole results in an increase of about 0.7 runs per year, slightly less than what The Book found. Moving the hurler further back to number seven is no different to batting the hurler ninth, which is identical to the conclusion in The Book.


      What others say?

      Anecdotal evidence, for what it is worth, would appear to support the Markov answer. An intriguing analysis by Brian Walton shows that the Cardinals' had better production from their number nine slot, putting more men on base and giving Pujols the opportunity to drive in more runs.

      The evidence and logic suggests that TLR is optimizing his percentages with this move. With the current squadron of players the pitcher should be batting seventh. And if all pitchers bat like Rick Ankiel does perhaps he doesn't need any hitters at all!

      References and Resources
      A big thanks to Baseball Reference and Baseball Musings for the data and tools that made this article possible.

      Also due to circumstances out of my control (for instance, as you read this I'll have been sans Internet for a week) the majority of these data are a week or so old (September 20). However, given where we are in the season the conclusions are still 100% valid (barring some almighty statistical freak phenomenon since writing).
      Source: Hardball Times

      Comment


      • #4
        That whole Hardball Times analysis is based on the context of the present Cardinals team, as managed by LaRussa; it's evaluating his move not on absolute merit but to the extent that it counterbalances his other predilections. For example, it talks about "giving Pujols the opportunity to drive in more runs" by having a better hitter in the ninth spot--three spots ahead of Pujols, and only then, potentially, after the first time through the order. It should be obvious that it's way more important for Pujols to have better on-base men in the first two spots. Go back and run that program to test not only the 8/9 swap but also all the other possible permutations of those nine. I guarantee you'll find another order which looks like an even bigger* improvement over what LaRussa is actually doing.

        A factor that makes this particular quirk seem to work for LaRussa (that some of his pitchers are actually not bad hitters) is the very same factor that makes his stated rationale (that the pitcher will make an out to end the inning) less relevant than it at first appears.

        Besides, anytime any batter is making the out to end the inning, there's going to be a certain chance that one or more runners are left on base as a result. If the 8th-spot batter is ending the inning, you might have any combination of the 3rd through 7th batters out on the bases. If you did have a weak-hitting pitcher up at that moment as opposed to that guy that "takes a lot of walks and has a high OBP," you'd be killing your inning, or taking your pitcher out.


        * Actually, even a statistically "optimized" batting order isn't that different from a random order. The absolute quality of the players is a million (point four) times more important. The biggest effect of the batting order in real games is probably on the psychology of the players who think of themselves as "leadoff" or "cleanup" or whatever. If the delicate character of your slugger leads him to hit better when he thinks he's in an important "hole," that might be the most significant difference of any.
        Last edited by Pere; 05-12-2008, 06:09 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I was under the impression that the fractional run scoring advantage this strategy may generate is wholly mitigated by the extra ABs the pitcher gets in relation to the 9th hitting non-pitcher. Obviously, pinch hitting further complicates matters.

          At the end of the day, sometimes it will work to your benefit and sometimes it won't. I wish I had something more profound to say...
          THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

          In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm having a hard time comprehending the whole thing, including the explanations or replies here. No disrespect to anyone's efforts, however.

            Straight up, for you NL fans, when batting 9th, how often does the pitcher make the last out in a game? How often does the pitcher lead off an inning?

            When batting 8th, have any of you noticed there being a change that's a plus, minus, or about the same?

            The reason I'm unsure of the whole thing is that if the position players get hits, whether the pitcher ends or begins an inning wouldn't matter much to me. Or is it more in having the pitcher being one AB further away from Pujols (or any other #3 hitter) than anything else?
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

            Comment


            • #7
              Unless the hitter right next to the pitcher, 8th or 9th, has power (Wily Mo Pena or someone) then it doesn't really matter.

              The 5 hitter will usually lead off the 2nd inning and the 9th the 3rd.
              (fantasy football)
              JM: Only did that for a couple of years and then we had a conspiracy so it kind of turned me sour. Our league's commissioner, Lew Ford(notes) at the time, was doing some shady things that ... I'd rather not talk about [laughs].
              DB: Isn't he in Japan right now?
              JM: I don't know where Lou is right now. He's probably fleeing the authorities [laughs].

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                I was under the impression that the fractional run scoring advantage this strategy may generate is wholly mitigated by the extra ABs the pitcher gets in relation to the 9th hitting non-pitcher. Obviously, pinch hitting further complicates matters.

                At the end of the day, sometimes it will work to your benefit and sometimes it won't. I wish I had something more profound to say...
                Of course when several of your pitchers are better hitters than your traditional #8 (Izturis) to begin with, it makes it even more complicated. So when Wainright is pitching, should Larussa put him 9th and move Izturis to
                8th since Tony want the better hitter 9th? . I would bet you are right-it probably makes no major difference over the course of a season.
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                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                  I was under the impression that the fractional run scoring advantage this strategy may generate is wholly mitigated by the extra ABs the pitcher gets in relation to the 9th hitting non-pitcher. Obviously, pinch hitting further complicates matters.

                  At the end of the day, sometimes it will work to your benefit and sometimes it won't. I wish I had something more profound to say...
                  Actually, the fractional amount of runs generated is greater than the fractional difference in outs the pitcher gets in the eight hole by getting, what averages out to be, 25-35 more at bats a season.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NickU View Post
                    Actually, the fractional amount of runs generated is greater than the fractional difference in outs the pitcher gets in the eight hole by getting, what averages out to be, 25-35 more at bats a season.
                    Okay. If that's the case, there it is.

                    Thanks, Nick.
                    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                      I'm having a hard time comprehending the whole thing, including the explanations or replies here. No disrespect to anyone's efforts, however.

                      Straight up, for you NL fans, when batting 9th, how often does the pitcher make the last out in a game? How often does the pitcher lead off an inning?

                      When batting 8th, have any of you noticed there being a change that's a plus, minus, or about the same?

                      The reason I'm unsure of the whole thing is that if the position players get hits, whether the pitcher ends or begins an inning wouldn't matter much to me. Or is it more in having the pitcher being one AB further away from Pujols (or any other #3 hitter) than anything else?
                      Well, you can see for yourself soon but usually the pitcher leads off or ends an inning, at least thats the way it seems to me. Usually the pitcher though doesn't seem to come up in crucial situations.
                      Unlike most other team sports, in which teams usually have an equivalent number of players on the field at any given time, in baseball the hitting team is at a numerical disadvantage, with a maximum of 5 players and 2 base coaches on the field at any time, compared to the fielding team's 9 players. For this reason, leaving the dugout to join a fight is generally considered acceptable in that it results in numerical equivalence on the field, and a fairer fight.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by redlegsfan21 View Post
                        Well, you can see for yourself soon but usually the pitcher leads off or ends an inning, at least thats the way it seems to me. Usually the pitcher though doesn't seem to come up in crucial situations.
                        I haven't followed much NL ball in awhile. Don't pitchers (when pitching) often pitch around a decent #8 hitter, especially if a rally is there, to get to the pitcher (batting)? I mean if I'm holding onto a 1-run lead in the 7th, there's a decent hitter (.260 or so, but can still hit a double) at the plate, wouldn't it make more sense to walk him than risk him hitting an RBI groundout to 1B or 2B? This IBB (or simply giving him nothing to hit, resulting in a BB anyway) would set me up for a DP with corner runners.

                        How often does that happen with the game on the line and the pitcher's on deck?
                        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                        Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                          I haven't followed much NL ball in awhile. Don't pitchers (when pitching) often pitch around a decent #8 hitter, especially if a rally is there, to get to the pitcher (batting)? I mean if I'm holding onto a 1-run lead in the 7th, there's a decent hitter (.260 or so, but can still hit a double) at the plate, wouldn't it make more sense to walk him than risk him hitting an RBI groundout to 1B or 2B? This IBB (or simply giving him nothing to hit, resulting in a BB anyway) would set me up for a DP with corner runners.

                          How often does that happen with the game on the line and the pitcher's on deck?
                          Well that does happen but let me throw this at you. David Ross batting in the #8 for the majority of his 210 games with the Reds but has only recieved 12 IBBs. I can't tell you for other teams but this is the situation with the Reds.
                          Unlike most other team sports, in which teams usually have an equivalent number of players on the field at any given time, in baseball the hitting team is at a numerical disadvantage, with a maximum of 5 players and 2 base coaches on the field at any time, compared to the fielding team's 9 players. For this reason, leaving the dugout to join a fight is generally considered acceptable in that it results in numerical equivalence on the field, and a fairer fight.

                          Comment

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