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Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

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  • And the benefits in general are nowhere near steroids, period.

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    • care to expound? ask a question?

      no...

      decent.
      "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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      • hg, thanx for being particularly forthcoming.

        try this one: players who used greenies at a time when steroids were not widely available.

        do you suppose that your *average major leaguer* supposes that if available back then, those who took greenies would reach for the steroid bowl instead?
        "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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        • Originally posted by west coast orange and black
          hg, thanx for being particularly forthcoming.

          try this one: players who used greenies at a time when steroids were not widely available.

          do you suppose that your *average major leaguer* supposes that if available back then, those who took greenies would reach for the steroid bowl instead?
          sure, I would think so.

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          • Originally posted by hiddengem
            Nobody really knows forsure the exact % of athletes that use. But I'd be willing to bet that at any given time during the dog days that 50% of the players on a field have taken one before the game...In the big leagues that is. Its not uncommon to have a pot of coffee with beans (greenies) already in it and the players just go pour themselves a cup. Just that simple.
            My problem is not with a baseball estimate. Its the general lack of facts behind the statements. How can you make an estimate that the majority of athletes, not ball players, are on speed and not have some type of proof to back the statement . You can't just come out and say that one of every two professional athletes take them and leave it like that. And he's wrong that thier taken for "physical" sports, their taken for energy or endurance. Heck any sport could be "physical". Do pro Bowlers pop speed? And once again they don't "work" for everyone. Some for some people it may make them feel anxious, naucious tired ot just plain sick. It's irresponcible and incorrect. Also we have never gotten an explination as to how he knows pitchers have thrown faster or how he even knows their on greenies.

            I have read about the amphetamines stories of putting them in the coffe pots and having one with amphetimines and another marked "decafe" that wasn't so much decaf as it was unspiked.

            My problem with ampetamines is that their benifits or percived benifits don't mesh with the science behind them. With Steroids you can clearly see how they work and what they do for an athlete. How can something that rasies your heart rate, resperation and blood pressure and can effect your motor skills be helpful? Not to mention the long term side effects and the fact that you build tollerance to them. But your legitimate first hand accounts say otherwise. Why is that? I think that its because the stimuli comes from the brain/central nervous system and it that can directly influence the players perception and the feeling of elation or euphoria that some users describe can give a psychological boost to a players performance. Thats the best reason I can come up with. Also don't count out the dependance factor either. some peopel are taking them for so long that much like any addiction they become dependant on them and naturally at that point will perform better with them then without them.
            Get out the Vote!!!

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            • Originally posted by ESPNFan
              My problem is not with a baseball estimate. Its the general lack of facts behind the statements. How can you make an estimate that the majority of athletes, not ball players, are on speed and not have some type of proof to back the statement . You can't just come out and say that one of every two professional athletes take them and leave it like that. And he's wrong that thier taken for "physical" sports, their taken for energy or endurance. Heck any sport could be "physical". Do pro Bowlers pop speed? And once again they don't "work" for everyone. Some for some people it may make them feel anxious, naucious tired ot just plain sick. It's irresponcible and incorrect. Also we have never gotten an explination as to how he knows pitchers have thrown faster or how he even knows their on greenies.

              I have read about the amphetamines stories of putting them in the coffe pots and having one with amphetimines and another marked "decafe" that wasn't so much decaf as it was unspiked.

              My problem with ampetamines is that their benifits or percived benifits don't mesh with the science behind them. With Steroids you can clearly see how they work and what they do for an athlete. How can something that rasies your heart rate, resperation and blood pressure and can effect your motor skills be helpful? Not to mention the long term side effects and the fact that you build tollerance to them. But your legitimate first hand accounts say otherwise. Why is that? I think that its because the stimuli comes from the brain/central nervous system and it that can directly influence the players perception and the feeling of elation or euphoria that some users describe can give a psychological boost to a players performance. Thats the best reason I can come up with. Also don't count out the dependance factor either. some peopel are taking them for so long that much like any addiction they become dependant on them and naturally at that point will perform better with them then without them.
              I don't really know what to say. I just know that I see people take them when they are dog tired, and it makes them feel like gold. I do know that players get dependant on them, I played with a guy a few years back that took up to 4 greenies a day. This guy played balls to the wall every single day, and I think the amphetamines played a large role in that.

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              • Originally posted by hiddengem
                I don't really know what to say. I just know that I see people take them when they are dog tired, and it makes them feel like gold. I do know that players get dependant on them. I played with a guy a few years back that took up to 4 greenies a day. This guy played balls to the wall every single day, and I think the amphetamines played a large role in that.
                I'm not asking you for an explanation because there is no easy explanation behind them. What you tell us actually helps us understand why they might work. But can you see the point that I'm trying to make? It's much harder to understand from a scientific point of veiw exactly how they help. But if players have been takign them for decades then there has to be some reason even if it is just a jolt before a game or something more. Thats what people here are trying to quantify.
                Get out the Vote!!!

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                • Originally posted by ESPNFan
                  But if players have been takign them for decades then there has to be some reason even if it is just a jolt before a game or something more. Thats what people here are trying to quantify.

                  I think its been said about 20 times on this thread..but I'll say it again. For those of you that have never played a 162 game schedule with games up to 25-30 straight days in a row in 8 different cities. You can't imagine what that does to your body. Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.

                  That is what they do for you.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hiddengem
                    I think its been said about 20 times on this thread..but I'll say it again. For those of you that have never played a 162 game schedule with games up to 25-30 straight days in a row in 8 different cities. You can't imagine what that does to your body. Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.

                    That is what they do for you.
                    Just curious, how much of that fatigue and wear and tear comes from the actual travel and not being able to eat what you want/healthy or distractions poor/ not enough sleep etc.. And how much of it is the physical activity itself?
                    Get out the Vote!!!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ESPNFan
                      Just curious, how much of that fatigue and wear and tear comes from the actual travel and not being able to eat what you want/healthy or distractions poor/ not enough sleep etc.. And how much of it is the physical activity itself?

                      In the Big Leagues you get treated pretty darn good. You get first class meals after the game, 5 star hotels, and private plane rides the night before. But you've got guys that are 30-40 yrs old that have been grinding this career out for many many years. You could go out on a Monday night game, dive for a ball and tweak your shoulder, then on tuesday get hit with a 90mph fastball in the shin and on Wednesday play a night game with a day game on Thursday morning.

                      Fan's/mgt could care less as to how much your body hurts or how much rest you've had. All they do is expect you to perform day in and day out, and if you don't they boo you.

                      In the Minor leagues its even worse. Average food, decent hotels, terrible travel and not much money to keep up on a decent diet. On top of the same physical strain on your body that the big leaguers have.

                      Its a Dog eat Dog world, not some fairytale that most people think of when they hear you play baseball for a living. But then again, I wouldn't give up my job for very many things, because I love the game.

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                      • Originally posted by hiddengem
                        Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.
                        And the juice turns you into the hulk. No comparison.

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                        • Originally posted by hiddengem
                          Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.
                          This is an important point, and speaks to the differences between greenies and steroids. You feel more energized, therefore you feel more fresh. If we understand why muscles get sore, then we also should know that no matter how many greenies you're on, your muscles are still sore even though you can't feel it. Small tears in your muscle fibers, lactic acid buildup, it all plays into muscle soreness. Taking a greenie will mask the pain, taking steroids will prevent the pain from being there in the first place. Much the same way icy hot or any of those creams do nothing for the actual muscle. They just irritate the skin surface, giving you the feeling of relief, but that's it.

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                          • Originally posted by johncap
                            And the juice turns you into the hulk. No comparison.
                            Thanks for the heads up.
                            Last edited by hiddengem; 03-15-2006, 09:20 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by hiddengem
                              Thanks for the heads up.
                              Any time.

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                              • HG,

                                Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

                                I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

                                Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

                                I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

                                I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?
                                THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                                In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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