Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

[hiddengem]

Steroids are indeed dangerous and nobody is denying that.

The term "stacking" came about because people do it, and it is effective. Sure, if you just blindly stack various forms without the proper advice on how much to take and how long to take it, then it's VERY dangerous. Bonds was getting the proper advice. He had some of the most knowledgable people around regarding the use of that stuff. When it's done properly, "stacking" is very beneficial. Not sure how you can say it isn't.

Bro, don't even bother. We are fighting a losing battle trying to explain to these guys how it is, when they really don't "want" to know how it is. They will read every post we write with glasses on that have "media filters" built in.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.

Just taking one steroid ALONE poses a serious health risk, this article right here sums it up.

http://www.mdadvice.com/library/ped/pedillsymp598.html

" The consensus among medical experts is that the use of anabolic steroids by both males and females poses greater risk and danger from adverse effects than is justified by any possible benefit. Physicians uniformly advise against using them. Their use is condemned by the Medical Commission of the International Olympic Committee. "

Steroids are indeed dangerous and nobody is denying that.

The term "stacking" came about because people do it, and it is effective. Sure, if you just blindly stack various forms without the proper advice on how much to take and how long to take it, then it's VERY dangerous. Bonds was getting the proper advice. He had some of the most knowledgable people around regarding the use of that stuff. When it's done properly, "stacking" is very beneficial. Not sure how you can say it isn't.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Here's a flaw I found In this book written about bonds, read this article.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbbw5215.htm

" Yet his workout regimen, supervised by personal trainer Raymond Farriss, who also trains former NFL running back Roger Craig and all-world wide receiver Jerry Rice, suggests he might be.

In four months, Bonds lowered his body fat to 8% from 12%, and is bench-pressing 315 pounds, up from 230. There were sprints to be run, and run, and run. He looks more muscular, more defined, more powerful. His biceps stretch his jersey's sleeves to the limit.

''I thought I was in great shape the way I worked out before because I was putting up the numbers I did,'' Bonds says in the clubhouse, ''but I was out of shape. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it and I'm happy with the results, but it doesn't guarantee success. I don't care how many weights you lift - you can lift until you're blue in the face - it doesn't guarantee success. "

That is well before the authors of the book claim that Bonds lowered his body fat to 8% or when he allegedly began using anabolics.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

How so. There are body builders and some wrestlers that have said, acknowledged that they have taken steroids for years and they're still alive. Of course at times steroids can do some serious damege, even kill but to say that Bonds could not have done what some have said he did or he would be out of the game, not buying that one.

I have no idea what bodybuilders you are referring to, or wrestlers. But anyway, body building and wrestling are entirely different from baseball, and wrestling is fake anyway, especially WWE.

Bonds has been accused of taking multiple steroids AT THE SAMETIME, cow steroids, winstrol, etc, winstrol alone is an incredibly strong and dangerous steroid, to mix it with cow steroids ( which I dont see how it would benefit an athlete at all) is assinine, and would only hinder performance. It's possible ( and more likely) that bonds used multiple steroids but in moderation, at different times. The book specifies that bonds started to become a " professional " at using steroids, if this is true, he wouldnt have used multiple types of harmful drugs at the sametime. Giambi had this problem, and canseco even pointed it out. He pointed out that he looked bloated, and had a wierd shaped body, and what happens later is giambi would face multiple health problems, including problems that would threaten his life.And the thing is, I dont think giambi was using anywhere near the amount of steroids at the sametime as book states bonds did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in673138.shtml

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.
"

How so. There are body builders and some wrestlers that have said, acknowledged that they have taken steroids for years and they're still alive. Of course at times steroids can do some serious damege, even kill but to say that Bonds could not have done what some have said he did or he would be out of the game, not buying that one.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

As for greenies, they obviously help, just like steroids, if the drug didnt help players wouldn't risk their lives to take the drug if it didnt provide any benefits, including the placebo effect.

http://www.hbo.com/costasnow/episode....01.story.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sp...7ee7ac&ei=5070

These two articles right here sums it up about greenies effect on baseball. There are many baseball players who speculate that the effects of no amphetamines in baseball will DWARF the effects of no steroids in baseball.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.

Just taking one steroid ALONE poses a serious health risk, this article right here sums it up.

http://www.mdadvice.com/library/ped/pedillsymp598.html

" The consensus among medical experts is that the use of anabolic steroids by both males and females poses greater risk and danger from adverse effects than is justified by any possible benefit. Physicians uniformly advise against using them. Their use is condemned by the Medical Commission of the International Olympic Committee. "

[Mike D.]

What happened to Baseball, this is horriffic.

Nothing that hasn't been going on a long, long time.

Tom House said he used steroids in the 1970's.

Players have been using amphetimines since the 1960's, at least...probably before.

This whole "going to hell in a handbasket talk" always cracks me up.

[MyDogSparty]

i can rationalize it this way: its not an unfair advantage since they were readily available in clubhouses. If anyone can use them and they are available in a clubhouse, how is it unfair?

It's unfair because first and foremost, players should obey the law. In this situation, those that are doing the "right thing" by obeying the law are at a disadvantage, thus making it unfair.

[Astro]

Great post - You'll get no arguements from me.

Sadly that is not the case for a few people on here

[ESPNFan]

Well if you think the only comment that has any truth to it was about the dependance factors of the drug then your pretty ignorant.

In your own statement you say it makes you "feel" more amped, more alert. Thats right you FEEL that way because its stimulating your nervous system. Its raising your heartrate your temperature and your blood pressure. Its all initiated psychologically and all those raised levels of activity in your body might make you "feel" more energized but their putting your body into a very dangerous territory. Amphetamines provide no caloric value so they themselves do not give the player energy, infact they suppress the urge to eat robbing him of future energy resources. So to gain this "energy" your body is stimulated form the central nervous system and begins to burn the body's stored energy. This results in the raised levels of resperatory fuction.
At rest the higher your heart rate the less work and endurance your going to have. If you have a lower heart rate at rest the more capasity
for endurance your going to have.
This is why it killed steve Bechler it rasied his heart rate blood preasue and body temperature to a level that was already very elevated. Couple that with trying to work out at a high level in a very warm environment and it produced the fatal heatstoke that killed him and Corey Stringer. But your probably right, I bet they felt very "peppy" and "energised" till their organs were starting to shut down.

[rockin500]

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?

i can rationalize it this way: its not an unfair advantage since they were readily available in clubhouses. If anyone can use them and they are available in a clubhouse, how is it unfair?

[MyDogSparty]

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?

[hiddengem]

It gives you the impression and sensation that you have more energy and pep. Its a psicological effect and while that can give you the feeling that your not tired, your actually redlining your body thus increasing the amount of time that you need to recover from the physical activity. So you feel run down and you take them again and now your addicted. Now you begin to subject yourself to the longterm side effects of them, jitters, sleep disorders, reduced appitite, numbness in the extremities, tremors, irregular heartbeat, dehydration, psychotic episodes and death.
The only benifit that you get from it is in reality a percived/illusionary one.

Steve Blecher died from ephedra which is an amphetamine.

Without sounding like a complete jerk, I'm just going to tell you like it is, and if you don't want to know the truth, so be it. The fact is, I've seen pitchers that have topped out at 91mph, take a greenie and hit 93mph. When you take a greenie, you are more alert you are more amped for the game, your legs feel like your arm doesn't hurt ect ect.

If you don't want to know the truth, then so be it, I'll move on to somebody that does. There are MANY forms of amphetamines that players take, that do different things. The only comment you made that has any truth to it was the one about how it becomes something you want and feel you need everyday. No different than normal everyday people wanting coffee to wake them up in the morning.

Finally your last comment about the guy killed by ephedra. That explains to me everything I need to know as to how far in the dark you really are on this stuff.

[Imapotato]

Amphetimines can and will never be proven to be a 'performance enhancing drug'

The Waner brothers smoked as a pick me up
Brett Butler drank 1000 mg of caffeine

All have the same effect basically as an upper

Are they illegal, yes, but so isn't marijuana...if a player is hyperactive by nature and smokes a bowl before a game to calm himself down

Is he really enhanicing his performance?

All conjecture

Steroids are NOT conjecture..nor are any other PED, they make you stronger, you repair muscle quicker, your refelxes become faster since they have shown to effect fast and slow twitch fibers...so its just not the same