Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

[l Stereotype]

No you don't understand.

I'm not comparing greenies to steroids at all.

If a woman wants a nicer figure she can get lipo. But if she wants to oversome her insecurities, better herself and transform herself into a physically and mentally healthy person, she has to lose the weight through work and develop her self-esteem in the process.

I'm talking about the health vs. wealth argument, that the gains made through shortcuts help you cash in but don't help YOU, in any way that isn't cosmetic. Is the concept of depth completely lost?

Most choose wealth over health (physical or mental) but then again most are anxious, stressed, fearful, unattentive and largely unhappy regardless of their superfiscial accolades, its all too typical.

Your personal benefit has instrinsic value that can't be trumped by records, money or anything else. I don't make much money, although I have had many offers to, but I'd rather be happy. So I have, ahem, put my money where my mouth is.

I see your point, which I believe is " why risk your life for something that benefits you now, but will harm you in the longrun ".

[Imapotato]

On a sidenote

A great thing Schmidt talks about (and yes, I am saying this because I preach it constantly on this site)

is to compare players of one era to their contemporaries

Which is why despite the ERA+, OPS+ and win shares...I think alot of so called HOFers from this era, are just very good...not great

[west coast orange and black]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

[runningshoes]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

I would suspect that once they're in your system, you can get immediate results.

I could be wrong, but that seems to make sense.

It takes an anti-depressent a couple weeks to get in you, but after that you feel daily benefits.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

It seems a bit off for sure, but it's hard to put ourselves in a users shoes. From all accounts, it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes: I would suspect that once they're in your system, you can get immediate results.

not according to, uh, doctors and users.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: ...it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

that just may be. but *feeling*, other than some sort of (false) confidence ain't gonna do for jack at the plate. canseco and mcgwire needing shots to feel a certain way? i ain't buyin'.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan: ...it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

that just may be. but *feeling*, other than some sort of (false) confidence ain't gonna do for jack at the plate. canseco and mcgwire needing shots to feel a certain way? i ain't buyin'.

Just threw it out there as a "maybe." Who knows with those chumps, but that's the only reason that makes any sense to me. It would be real confidence knowing that they were taking steroids, and them taking a shot would just give them a recent reminder of that.

[Mongoose]

I believe Schmidt was probably on steroids as well.

Go find an episode of The Superstars with Schmidt in the weightlifting competition. He was push pressing 240 lbs. The most Lou Ferrigno could do was 290, I think, and he'd taken everything including cadaver glands. Schmidt was stronger than most of the NFL players.

Anyone who lifts weights regularly knows that's an unlikely lift.

[Dude Paskert]

I believe Schmidt was probably on steroids as well.

Go find an episode of The Superstars with Schmidt in the weightlifting competition. He was push pressing 240 lbs. The most Lou Ferrigno could do was 290, I think, and he'd taken everything including cadaver glands. Schmidt was stronger than most of the NFL players.

Anyone who lifts weights regularly knows that's an unlikely lift.

This inspired me to find the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGD_KMsfK2c
Schmidt hit 230 and failed at 240. I think that Ferrigno actually failed at 290, but they gave it to him...but, remember, Lou was a bodybuilder, not an Olympic lifter. He was a very strong man, but clearly not familiar with the technique of what was basically the second part of a clean and jerk. Brian Oldfield, who was not nearly as pretty as Ferrigno but needed explosive power as a shotputter, did 310 easily and surely could have gone a lot higher. Tucker Fredrickson, a running back who had been retired for several years, totally owned Schmidt by hitting 260 lbs. If Schmidt had military pressed 230 I might be suspicious, but 230 with a lot of help from the legs is not insane for a guy his size who was well known as strong for a baseball player.

[drstrangelove]

This inspired me to find the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGD_KMsfK2c
Schmidt hit 230 and failed at 240. I think that Ferrigno actually failed at 290, but they gave it to him...but, remember, Lou was a bodybuilder, not an Olympic lifter. He was a very strong man, but clearly not familiar with the technique of what was basically the second part of a clean and jerk. Brian Oldfield, who was not nearly as pretty as Ferrigno but needed explosive power as a shotputter, did 310 easily and surely could have gone a lot higher. Tucker Fredrickson, a running back who had been retired for several years, totally owned Schmidt by hitting 260 lbs. If Schmidt had military pressed 230 I might be suspicious, but 230 with a lot of help from the legs is not insane for a guy his size who was well known as strong for a baseball player.

I believe Schmidt was probably on steroids as well.

Go find an episode of The Superstars with Schmidt in the weightlifting competition. He was push pressing 240 lbs. The most Lou Ferrigno could do was 290, I think, and he'd taken everything including cadaver glands. Schmidt was stronger than most of the NFL players.

Anyone who lifts weights regularly knows that's an unlikely lift.

I did a harder type of press (a military press) of 160 when I weighed 170 and was 16 years old. And my strength was not from doing weightlifting, because I actually had never lifted weights before then, but from doing judo. It's incredible that anyone would think that a grown man weighing 210 pounds could not lift 230 on an easier type of press.

Yes, I've lifted weights and that indeed might be an unlikely lift for an overweight 60 year old golfer, a soccer mom or a 12 year old. But a 25-35 year old, muscular 210 pound man should not find a 230 pound push press to be "unlikely" once they learn how to do the lift.

[Mongoose]

This inspired me to find the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGD_KMsfK2c
Schmidt hit 230 and failed at 240. I think that Ferrigno actually failed at 290, but they gave it to him...but, remember, Lou was a bodybuilder, not an Olympic lifter. He was a very strong man, but clearly not familiar with the technique of what was basically the second part of a clean and jerk. Brian Oldfield, who was not nearly as pretty as Ferrigno but needed explosive power as a shotputter, did 310 easily and surely could have gone a lot higher. Tucker Fredrickson, a running back who had been retired for several years, totally owned Schmidt by hitting 260 lbs. If Schmidt had military pressed 230 I might be suspicious, but 230 with a lot of help from the legs is not insane for a guy his size who was well known as strong for a baseball player.

No way Schmidt should have been anywhere near the NFL guys, where steroids were already widespread, or Lou Ferrigno who could bench about 500 lbs.

I did a harder type of press (a military press) of 160 when I weighed 170 and was 16 years old. And not from doing weightlifting, because I actually had never lifted weights before then when I did that, but from doing judo. It's incredible that people think that a grown man weighing 210 pounds could not lift 230 on an easier type of press.

Standing or sitting?

[drstrangelove]

No way Schmidt should have been anywhere near the NFL guys, where steroids were already widespread, or Lou Ferrigno who could bench about 500 lbs.

Really, that's your opinion. First, you assume that everyone in the NFL used steroids. Second, you assume that the press (230 pounds is remarkable.) Third, you concluded based on your assumptions.

The push press is a much a skill lift as strength. And that weight for a 210 pound man isn't all that remarkable in any event.

Standing or sitting?

Standing press. Thus far easier since I didn't have to get the weight up to my chest. Plus, and this is just as important, is that I had zero weightlifting skill. I had never lifted before and I was just screwing around in PE class. (It caused my gym teacher who happened to be the head football coach to suggest I try out for the team.) A decent lift, no doubt, for an untrained 170-pound 16-year old, but not the stuff of legends.

[Mongoose]

Standing press. Thus far easier since I didn't have to get the weight up to my chest. Plus, and this is just as important, is I had zero weightlifting skill. I had never lifted it and I was just screwing around in PE classes. (It caused my gym teacher who happened to be the head football coach to suggest I try out for the team.) A decent lift no doubt, but not the stuff of legends.

Yeah, it's a freaky achievement for a non-lifter. Free weights?

Nevertheless, dollars to donuts you were probably cheating it up with your legs. It's instinctive to do that and it takes a conscious effort not to.

Another thing to consider is Schmidt is 6'3" which would be another handicap. He cleared 240 on another episode, I think. That kind of lift is no joke. It's substantially more than his weight. Why is it an article of faith he didn't use steroids?

Oldfield was on as much gear as Lou if not more. In a way both were human guinea pigs.

Really, that's your opinion. First, you assume that everyone in the NFL used steroids. Second, you assume that the press (230 pounds is remarkable.) Third, you concluded based on your assumptions.

The push press is a much a skill lift as strength. And that weight for a 210 pound man isn't all that remarkable in any event.

Yeah it is a skill lift. Unless Schmidt spent months/years doing it he shouldn't have come near Ferrigno et al.

What you're really saying is if Schmidt had spent time working on the lift he could have done as much as Ferrigno. I'm not buying it.

[drstrangelove]

Yeah, it's a freaky achievement for a non-lifter. Free weights?

Yup free weights. And really? I never thought a whole lot about it at the time or since. I was just strong from judo (which involves a lot of training that impacts the shoulders and chest.) And doing push ups (I would do 70 straight, several times a week in training.)

Nevertheless, dollars to donuts you were probably cheating it up with your legs. It's instinctive to do that and it takes a conscious effort not to.

My legs still would not get the weight from my waist to my chest. And I can't say whether it's instinctive or not, nor whether I used my legs or not, but the weight was not that difficult for me as I recall. My point though is that compared to me then (a 230 push press) isn't that grand a lift for a person who was older than me, outweighed me by 40 pounds, who was presumably using professionally instructed strength training, and while doing an easier lift.