Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

[rockin500]

Can you please explain to all of us how a substance that raises your standing heart rate helps you react quicker, swing faster and most absurdly give you more stamina?

it could easily give you more stamina for that game. maybe stamina is not the right word, but it does give you more pep and energy for some period of time. If you dont believe that, well, I'm sorry but I guess you dont believe men landed on the moon. If coffee and Nodoz can do that for ya, full blown speed will give ya that even more.

I dont think there is any question whether speed gives ya a faster reaction time, its just how MUCH of a reaction time. (i dont think it gives you that much, myself, but still, i react better in the morning when I've had my coffee rather than without)

breaking the law, yes. cheating, no.

but HG's main point is that steroids were available to everyone just as speed was available to everyone so he cannot by definition be considered a cheat, because they were both not tested for and readily available.

[Elvis]

This actually has nothing to do with bonds.

It was a simple question, schmidt used a drug that was banned in america, and admitted to it, so is he a cheater/felon ?

Did he lie to a Grand Jury about it?

Was he asked publicly while he was playing if he did and deny it?

Is he a rude, arrogant, self-superior snot?

No

No

No

[ESPNFan]

it could easily give you more stamina for that game. maybe stamina is not the right word, but it does give you more pep and energy for some period of time. If you dont believe that, well, I'm sorry but I guess you dont believe men landed on the moon. If coffee and Nodoz can do that for ya, full blown speed will give ya that even more.

I dont think there is any question whether speed gives ya a faster reaction time, its just how MUCH of a reaction time. (i dont think it gives you that much, myself, but still, i react better in the morning when I've had my coffee rather than without)

breaking the law, yes. cheating, no.

but HG's main point is that steroids were available to everyone just as speed was available to everyone so he cannot by definition be considered a cheat, because they were both not tested for and readily available.

It gives you the impression and sensation that you have more energy and pep. Its a psicological effect and while that can give you the feeling that your not tired, your actually redlining your body thus increasing the amount of time that you need to recover from the physical activity. So you feel run down and you take them again and now your addicted. Now you begin to subject yourself to the longterm side effects of them, jitters, sleep disorders, reduced appitite, numbness in the extremities, tremors, irregular heartbeat, dehydration, psychotic episodes and death.
The only benifit that you get from it is in reality a percived/illusionary one.

Steve Blecher died from ephedra which is an amphetamine.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

MLB not being able to test for steroids has everything to do with the CBA, which has everything to do with the players. The fact that MLB couldn't test for it doesn't make it ok; steroids were mentioned as an illegal substance that was not to be used.

Greenies might affect everyone differently, but from what I know about them, it's a temporary boost of energy and that's it. You come down even further when you're off them and you become mentally dependent on them just to funtion. They don't allow you to workout longer and harder or alter your chemical makeup. An entirely different level of cheating imo.

[west coast orange and black]

different, sure. but effective.

do you agree, sultan, that it can be correctly argued that the players fought harder against uppers being included in the testing than steroids?

[ESPNFan]

Not anywhere near as effective and if you look closely I believe caffine and guarana extract were not included as amphetamines. The pick me up players look for from speed can be replaced by legal alternatives but, dispite what GNC will let you believe, nothing puts on mass like steroids.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

different, sure. but effective.

do you agree, sultan, that it can be correctly argued that the players fought harder against uppers being included in the testing than steroids?

Not really sure to tell you the truth. Are you basically asking if I think more players are on those than steroids?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The pick me up players look for from speed can be replaced by legal alternatives but, dispite what GNC will let you believe, nothing puts on mass like steroids.

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.

[Guerrero Mad Man 2715]

What happened to Baseball, this is horriffic.

[BadKarma]

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "standard" steroids. Most people that use steroids and other PEDs regularly stack them. The other thing to remember is this: You can take all the steroids/PEDs you want, and get as bulked/pumped up as you want, but if you don't have the hand-eye coordination to hit the ball, they are not going to help to you. There is no special steroid combination that makes people hit HRs. What the steroids will do though is strengthen someone who can hit a baseball, and allow them to generate greater bat speed then what they normally could. That coupled with the skill to actually hit the ball into the air is what enables these guys to hit more HRs then what they could normally hit. If all you had to do was pop some steroids to become an elite ball player, you would see alot more people at that level.

To answer the original poster though: Yes, Mike Schmidt should be considered a cheater. Did the greenies actually add anything to his already impressive skills? Not sure on that one, but he was attempting to gain an edge by using them, and he knew that he was not supposed to be using them.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "standard" steroids. Most people that use steroids and other PEDs regularly stack them. The other thing to remember is this: You can take all the steroids/PEDs you want, and get as bulked/pumped up as you want, but if you don't have the hand-eye coordination to hit the ball, they are not going to help to you. There is no special steroid combination that makes people hit HRs. What the steroids will do though is strengthen someone who can hit a baseball, and allow them to generate greater bat speed then what they normally could. That coupled with the skill to actually hit the ball into the air is what enables these guys to hit more HRs then what they could normally hit. If all you had to do was pop some steroids to become an elite ball player, you would see alot more people at that level.

To answer the original poster though: Yes, Mike Schmidt should be considered a cheater. Did the greenies actually add anything to his already impressive skills? Not sure on that one, but he was attempting to gain an edge by using them, and he knew that he was not supposed to be using them.

No question you're right about the steroids helping. The only thing you didn't hit on was the timing/hitters eye benefit of them. It's been mentioned for years and years, that you can't just take a muscle head out of a gym, hand him a bat, and expect him to hit 40 HR. Most understand it takes more than that. The point is, if you already have the...ah nevermind, you know what's up.

About the "stacking" thing, maybe you're more studied on that that me. From people I've talked to, they start out simple, and then eventually they became psychologically addicted in a sense. It's like they just couldn't get big enough. So they take it up a notch from there. Even those guys though, didn't "stack" as many forms as Bonds allegedly did, including that cow steroid.

[Imapotato]

Amphetimines can and will never be proven to be a 'performance enhancing drug'

The Waner brothers smoked as a pick me up
Brett Butler drank 1000 mg of caffeine

All have the same effect basically as an upper

Are they illegal, yes, but so isn't marijuana...if a player is hyperactive by nature and smokes a bowl before a game to calm himself down

Is he really enhanicing his performance?

All conjecture

Steroids are NOT conjecture..nor are any other PED, they make you stronger, you repair muscle quicker, your refelxes become faster since they have shown to effect fast and slow twitch fibers...so its just not the same

[hiddengem]

It gives you the impression and sensation that you have more energy and pep. Its a psicological effect and while that can give you the feeling that your not tired, your actually redlining your body thus increasing the amount of time that you need to recover from the physical activity. So you feel run down and you take them again and now your addicted. Now you begin to subject yourself to the longterm side effects of them, jitters, sleep disorders, reduced appitite, numbness in the extremities, tremors, irregular heartbeat, dehydration, psychotic episodes and death.
The only benifit that you get from it is in reality a percived/illusionary one.

Steve Blecher died from ephedra which is an amphetamine.

Without sounding like a complete jerk, I'm just going to tell you like it is, and if you don't want to know the truth, so be it. The fact is, I've seen pitchers that have topped out at 91mph, take a greenie and hit 93mph. When you take a greenie, you are more alert you are more amped for the game, your legs feel like your arm doesn't hurt ect ect.

If you don't want to know the truth, then so be it, I'll move on to somebody that does. There are MANY forms of amphetamines that players take, that do different things. The only comment you made that has any truth to it was the one about how it becomes something you want and feel you need everyday. No different than normal everyday people wanting coffee to wake them up in the morning.

Finally your last comment about the guy killed by ephedra. That explains to me everything I need to know as to how far in the dark you really are on this stuff.

[MyDogSparty]

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?

[rockin500]

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?

i can rationalize it this way: its not an unfair advantage since they were readily available in clubhouses. If anyone can use them and they are available in a clubhouse, how is it unfair?