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Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

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  • hiddengem
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

    Well, I've seen it happen a few times where a player will pop a greenie and 20 minutes later doesn't feel what he normally acustom to feeling, so he goes back in and gets another one.

    Apparantly its not all mental. But I already new that.

    Leave a comment:


  • l Stereotype
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    Right, who has time to do right for your body, or to work for what you want?

    Take speed.

    Get lipo, breast implants, botox, whatever...

    The goal shouldn't be to look healthy or con yourself into feeling healthy, but to actually be healthy.

    I mean do whatever you want, and I'm not knocking you simply for taking PEDs, but to say you do so because you don't have time to eat right, work out, etc is a gross misprioritization.
    You dont understand.

    Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results, Tom house did that and ended up being a " failed experiment ". You have to eat better, workout harder, take different types for different benefits, worry about injuring ligaments, acne, etc.

    Greenies you just take, pure and simple, no process, no regimen, it's much easier, and you benefit from it.

    I'm not saying one helps more than the other, but if you want an instant " boost " to play whatever sport you play better, greenies is the anwser.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Right, who has time to do right for your body, or to work for what you want?

    Take speed.

    Get lipo, breast implants, botox, whatever...

    The goal shouldn't be to look healthy or con yourself into feeling healthy, but to actually be healthy.

    I mean do whatever you want, and I'm not knocking you simply for taking PEDs, but to say you do so because you don't have time to eat right, work out, etc is a gross misprioritization.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by l Stereotype
    I dont think anyone is saying greenies helps more than steroids, you are completly misunderstanding.

    People are just pointing out it's benefits, and how an athlete benefits from them. They help you perform better in physical sports. You dont tire that quickly, you feel less pain, more energized, faster, and lighter.

    Also, the goodthing about them is there is no process, you just take them and that's it. Steroids is a whole process, working out, eating right, etc, too much time and not many ( atleast me and some people i know) dont have the time or discipline to do the whole steroidcocktail/regimen.
    Originally posted by Sultan
    This is an important point, and speaks to the differences between greenies and steroids. You feel more energized, therefore you feel more fresh. If we understand why muscles get sore, then we also should know that no matter how many greenies you're on, your muscles are still sore even though you can't feel it. Small tears in your muscle fibers, lactic acid buildup, it all plays into muscle soreness. Taking a greenie will mask the pain, taking steroids will prevent the pain from being there in the first place. Much the same way icy hot or any of those creams do nothing for the actual muscle. They just irritate the skin surface, giving you the feeling of relief, but that's it.
    -----------------

    Leave a comment:


  • l Stereotype
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    May I ask it again, only a small sample only one hitter the man we are discussing.
    Would a 200 pound Barry on greenies be any more dangerous than the Hindenberg like Barry at 230 pounds.
    I dont think anyone is saying greenies helps more than steroids, you are completly misunderstanding.

    People are just pointing out it's benefits, and how an athlete benefits from them. They help you perform better in physical sports. You dont tire that quickly, you feel less pain, more energized, faster, and lighter.

    Also, the goodthing about them is there is no process, you just take them and that's it. Steroids is a whole process, working out, eating right, etc, too much time and not many ( atleast me and some people i know) dont have the time or discipline to do the whole steroidcocktail/regimen.

    Leave a comment:


  • l Stereotype
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    HG,

    Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

    I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

    Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

    I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

    I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?
    What greenies do is they give you a great boost right away, the second you take them. They help a lot in athletics, especially physical ones. I play multiple sports such as hockey, baseball, tennis, and soccer, and with my greenies I'm able to perform at an elite level in all those sports longer. You feel lighter, faster, and more durable, you definetly dont tire as quickly neither.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    May I ask it again, only a small sample only one hitter the man we are discussing.
    Would a 200 pound Barry on greenies be any more dangerous than the Hindenberg like Barry at 230 pounds.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Achieving these things through therapy, meditation, yoga, etc. is "natural" and can be summoned individually at his/her own will. Taking a greenie is not an analogy, its a simulation- if the two are comparable in effect.

    Its like writing a brilliant paper vs. plageurizing one. If you write it, you learn and have that knowledge, if you copy it you just manipulate an outside source for your personal gain and benefit nothing beyond the immediate cosmetic effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • johncap
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    To further this notion, on a sort of tangential plane,

    Doesn't anybody find it somewhat striking the amount of athletes that begin to embrace, at least parts of, Eastern Philosophy and rituals? Athletics is very much alpha-male and meditation, yoga, feng shui, spirituality and mental exercises are certainly not seen as such. However, often times you see professional atheltes alluding to the power of nature, positive thinking and the like. The advocates of the spiritual forms of betterment often emphasize the importance of visualizing your achievement of something or the personal belief in the ability for one to do these things as the first step to actuaizing these goals.

    Isn't that sort of like a natural greenie. Those who partake in these types of activities report great increases in energy and "life-force" or "chi."

    I don't know exactly where I'm going here, but if the debate is really about the semantic nuances of "natural," "enhanced," "potential" and "100%" this seems like it may have a place within the discussion as a sort of mental greenie, a natural and legal, life affirming and productive way to increase your potential.

    Anybody who has seen highly advanced martial artists, shamans or shirpas can certainly understand the potential benefits to athletes to try to develop similar abilities.
    This is exactly where I was just gonna go, in a much more basic sense. If the chemical point regarding greenies, etc is that they provide a psychological advantage more than a physical one, than hypnotherapy shouldn't be considered any less of a problem. I think this is taking things to an extreme. There is STILL no comparison between using anabolic steroids and stuff like greenies, from what I've heard, read and seen on the subject, and for those who seem to want to downplay the sins of McGwire, bonds, Giambi, etc by up-playing what Schmidt admitted to are way off base.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    To further this notion, on a sort of tangential plane,

    Doesn't anybody find it somewhat striking the amount of athletes that begin to embrace, at least parts of, Eastern Philosophy and rituals? Athletics is very much alpha-male and meditation, yoga, feng shui, spirituality and mental exercises are certainly not seen as such. However, often times you see professional atheltes alluding to the power of nature, positive thinking and the like. The advocates of the spiritual forms of betterment often emphasize the importance of visualizing your achievement of something or the personal belief in the ability for one to do these things as the first step to actuaizing these goals.

    Isn't that sort of like a natural greenie. Those who partake in these types of activities report great increases in energy and "life-force" or "chi."

    I don't know exactly where I'm going here, but if the debate is really about the semantic nuances of "natural," "enhanced," "potential" and "100%" this seems like it may have a place within the discussion as a sort of mental greenie, a natural and legal, life affirming and productive way to increase your potential.

    Anybody who has seen highly advanced martial artists, shamans or shirpas can certainly understand the potential benefits to athletes to try to develop similar abilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • ESPNFan
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    HG,

    Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

    I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

    Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

    I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

    I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?
    Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.
    This is my main point of contention. Nobody is saying that amphetamines do nothing. What we are saying is that the almost institutionalized perception of what they do for a player and the actual benefits of them may be two different things. Especially considering the psycotropic nature of the chemicals in question. A person's subconsious and perception can in some cases be just as powerful as some medications. This is why double blind testing with a placebo controll group is so important, as digglahhh pointed out.

    My problem with amphetamines has always been the extreme danger they pose as opposed to steroids and much less the "cheating" accusations they have recently garnered.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    HG,

    Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

    I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

    Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

    I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

    I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?

    Leave a comment:


  • johncap
    replied
    Originally posted by hiddengem
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Any time.

    Leave a comment:


  • hiddengem
    replied
    Originally posted by johncap
    And the juice turns you into the hulk. No comparison.
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Last edited by hiddengem; 03-15-2006, 09:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by hiddengem
    Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.
    This is an important point, and speaks to the differences between greenies and steroids. You feel more energized, therefore you feel more fresh. If we understand why muscles get sore, then we also should know that no matter how many greenies you're on, your muscles are still sore even though you can't feel it. Small tears in your muscle fibers, lactic acid buildup, it all plays into muscle soreness. Taking a greenie will mask the pain, taking steroids will prevent the pain from being there in the first place. Much the same way icy hot or any of those creams do nothing for the actual muscle. They just irritate the skin surface, giving you the feeling of relief, but that's it.

    Leave a comment:

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