Greenies = Steroids = Pine Tar

[Pine Tar]

While your point is understood, the taunting nature of your posts is uncalled for and absolutely frowned upon on this site. We don't do that here.

I for one am tired of all the baseball purests crying about Bonds as well. If this were McGwire, there would not be nearly the outcry.

As for jaquishsucks "taunting" Johncap, be careful Captain. You seem to be using your moderater status to take sides here. The taunting that occured was in response to a post where Johncap wrote some much nastier things about jaquish. So is it OK to attack a person but not to taunt them? Or is it only OK to do either if you agree with their perspective? Just trying to get the rules straight. I hate hypocrisy

[ESPNFan]

The article on East Germany's use of steoids -- and many other drugs, usually in combination -- raises many points and questions. Thanks for posting it. That steroids had an effect on performance was obvious (check the graphs), but it was primarily in sports where strength (weightlifting, hammer throw, shotput, even skiing) and speed (track, swimming) were/are crucial. It's also clear from reading this that the steroids and related cocktails were used overwhelmingly on young athletes, not mature ones, and especially females. Even more obvious from the report is that injurious side-effects were noticed from very early on, and we're talking 30+ years ago. Also interesting is the research that went into covering up the steroid use. Still, the deleterious side-effects became so evident, so quickly, that it became a public issue. The report details this. The implications for baseball are unclear, at least to me, because of the different skill sets involved, the relative ages of the athletes involved and the gender issue. This report won't settle that question. Again, the bulk of the data seem drawn largely from female subjects, who apparently showed the most remarkable results (as well as the most debilitating side-effects). To me, this report can be read on one hand as strengthening the anti-steroid faction, while on the other hand bolstering the case of those who argue that jury is still out the effects of steroids on performance in baseball. I think the medical data in the report also buttress the case that if Bonds had taken all that he's bben claimed to have taken, he probably wouldn't be able to walk and would resemble a Jane Goodall research subect.

Sandlot, I can't tell you how good it is to see someone has finally decied to put the time into reading this. For that I thank you first off. Sometimes I feel like when I post it I'm talking to a wall. I'll try to answer your questions bit by bit as best I can.
First yes the Events of the Olympics are basicly either strenght or speed related. But much like these events what they have in common with baseball is the emphasis on a practiced, repeated motion. Baseball players need much less pure brute strength than say a hammer thrower but the tourque in a hamer throw and the tourque generated in a baseball swing use many of the same muscle groups. Both athletes repeat a motion refining it and getting to to a level that is absolutely instictive. You add 5 or ten more lbs of muscle, particularly to the quick twich muscle fibers in the arms trunk and legs and that could be all that a batter needs to do is quciken his swing and subsequently reaction time, to see some inprovement in power definetly and possibly average.
Second yes the Athletes in the East Germans programs were started very young but remeber these athletes and the governments weren't just looking for some incrimental improvement in one area of their game like most baseball players. They were trying to create the best Swimmer, polevaulter, etc.. in the world, a Gold medalist. As you can see most every athlete imporved which is what most would asume would happen with ball players. So while The MLB players didnt start these substances while they were adolesants most were plenty skilled enough to benifit from them.

Third reguarding the sideeffects. Actually the fact that most of these athletes began their doping during their youth probably contributed much more to the eventual side effects that they would encounter. There is evidence that Anabolics can close the growth plates of adolecents, etc..
And like you point out this was 30 years ago and some of the anabolics of today have much lower hepatoxicity levels than those the East Germans were using. Also important is the levels of sexlinked androgens in these compounds. These are where most of the really dibilitating sexual mutations come from and the East Germans were still using Testosterone which has none of the androgenic properties removed. Also there is such a better understanding of how and what to do to minimize side effects now. And newer less toxic less androgenic substances come out every day. In Will Carrol's book an Scientist who claimed to be instrumental to creating THG was quoted as saying there is alreayd a "perfect anabolic" available and that THG is already 3 generations old.

I think finally you need to realise that these substances are sought after by the athletes and they would only do so if they thought they would help them. LOL as far as the Bonds example goes, You could say he has changed in his appearence and again he had enlisted a laboratory to assist him. As the years go on we will, unfortunately I'm afraid, learn much more about the consequences of some of the ballplayers actions.

Again Sandlot thanks so much for giving it a read.

[sandlot]

The article on East Germany's use of steoids -- and many other drugs, usually in combination -- raises many points and questions. Thanks for posting it. That steroids had an effect on performance was obvious (check the graphs), but it was primarily in sports where strength (weightlifting, hammer throw, shotput, even skiing) and speed (track, swimming) were/are crucial. It's also clear from reading this that the steroids and related cocktails were used overwhelmingly on young athletes, not mature ones, and especially females. Even more obvious from the report is that injurious side-effects were noticed from very early on, and we're talking 30+ years ago. Also interesting is the research that went into covering up the steroid use. Still, the deleterious side-effects became so evident, so quickly, that it became a public issue. The report details this. The implications for baseball are unclear, at least to me, because of the different skill sets involved, the relative ages of the athletes involved and the gender issue. This report won't settle that question. Again, the bulk of the data seem drawn largely from female subjects, who apparently showed the most remarkable results (as well as the most debilitating side-effects). To me, this report can be read on one hand as strengthening the anti-steroid faction, while on the other hand bolstering the case of those who argue that jury is still out the effects of steroids on performance in baseball. I think the medical data in the report also buttress the case that if Bonds had taken all that he's bben claimed to have taken, he probably wouldn't be able to walk and would resemble a Jane Goodall research subect.

[ESPNFan]

Steroids = Vastly overrated as a " performance enhancing drug ".

Statements like this make me want to start a "Facts About PEDs THREAD"

The enitire East german Olympic team says Hi.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262#R4

Thats an article from Clinical chemistry that details the Use and effects of Anabolic use by the East Germans during their state sponcered doping program.

[GnomeansGno]

House obviously wasn't getting the best advice or the best mixture of steroids possible. Heck, you go out on your own and experiment, all sorts of things are bound to go wrong, and you're bound to not benefit as much. I agree they help you recover from injuries faster, and they also allow the muscles to heal quicker. A normal person works out and tears the muscle fibers. Naturally, we get sore and the muscles need time to repair themselves. On steroids, you can lift like a madman day after day, hour after hour, increasing strength. Strength which aids on a baseball field, that's a fact.

Which leads me to the Mantle question. Do you think someone can just pump steroids into a young man and he all of a sudden gains 30 or 40 pounds without doing the necessary weight training? What was Mantle doing for workouts at the time?

It seems that we both sort of agree on what steroids does for an athlete, and I agree with your point about house. But the way the book " game of shadows " states bonds was using steroids ( cattle?) it sounds like he was doing just what tom house was doing.

As for mantle, I was never accusing him of taking steroids, just pointing out that steroids were around backthen, and some athletes knew about them. I agree that steroids wont help someone build muscle without a proper workout regimen, but doesn't it make ligaments grow abnormally regardless ?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

So stacking multiple types of steroids at the sametime ( which is what the book states, including cattle steroids, LOL) is the " best way " to gain an edge ?

Interesting, because house did that and was a failed experiment.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/05/03/SPGSTCJ0SK1.DTL

Anyway, I'm not saying steroids don't help, but IMO, it's overrated, i basically see it as a drug that helps you recover from injuries faster, and prolongs workouts.

House obviously wasn't getting the best advice or the best mixture of steroids possible. Heck, you go out on your own and experiment, all sorts of things are bound to go wrong, and you're bound to not benefit as much. I agree they help you recover from injuries faster, and they also allow the muscles to heal quicker. A normal person works out and tears the muscle fibers. Naturally, we get sore and the muscles need time to repair themselves. On steroids, you can lift like a madman day after day, hour after hour, increasing strength. Strength which aids on a baseball field, that's a fact.

Which leads me to the Mantle question. Do you think someone can just pump steroids into a young man and he all of a sudden gains 30 or 40 pounds without doing the necessary weight training? What was Mantle doing for workouts at the time?

[GnomeansGno]

I've never said those things don't help at all, just that they're not on the same level as steroids, especially when taken to the degree that Bonds allegedly did.




I have never heard of this. Do you have a passage from the book, or some more details? That's interesting.

So stacking multiple types of steroids at the sametime ( which is what the book states, including cattle steroids, LOL) is the " best way " to gain an edge ?

Interesting, because house did that and was a failed experiment.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/05/03/SPGSTCJ0SK1.DTL

Anyway, I'm not saying steroids don't help, but IMO, it's overrated, i basically see it as a drug that helps you recover from injuries faster, and prolongs workouts.

As for mantle, I got that information from a book called The Last Hero: The Life of Mickey Mantle by David Falkner. This is the sameguy who wrote a book on robinson, and morgan, and I believe someoneelse ( forgot at the moment).

Here's an excerpt from the book - The suddeness with which he grew may or may not have been significant. Growth spurts are obviously common at that age. What was not so common, however, was how quickly he bulked up. Nick Ferguson recalled the time & the dramatic change in his friend's physical appearance.
'Mutt used to drive Mickey back & forth from Oklahoma City, to the Children's Hospital,' he said. 'They'd leave him there for awhile & then take him back. Mick was like 130 when this started, and then he lost weight to where he may have been 100 pounds, I don't know, but then all that changed. I don't know what they were giving him. He thought maybe it was steroids, but I have no idea what it was, but he claimed that's what pumped him up to 160 pounds, he looked totaly different. I also think that that's maybe what caused him trouble in his later years. His muscles didn't develop naturally maybe, and it caused a lot of pulls and everything. It was just kinda unusual the way he grew like that in one year.'

[Pghfan987]

and his behavior is illegal, with the facts as I currently understand them.

Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.

It's funny you should mention this, because, in a related story, Cal Ripken's seat in Cooperstown is being revoked after it was learned that he had not one, but TWO unpaid parking tickets. Those HOF voters sure are strict.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/cooperstown/justkidding

Mark

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I find it funny that you refuse to believe ( judging by your arguements with others on this very thread) amphetamines, corkedbats, spitballs, ritalin, etc, " help " a lot, but deem steroids as the ultimate performance enhancing drug that can turn bobby bonilla into mickey mantle with one injection.

I've never said those things don't help at all, just that they're not on the same level as steroids, especially when taken to the degree that Bonds allegedly did.

Or what about that book on mantle, where a friend of his states mantle suspected steroids was possible for a " odd " growth spurt he had as a teen ?

Something to think about....

I have never heard of this. Do you have a passage from the book, or some more details? That's interesting.

[GnomeansGno]

There's a long list of MVP winners and HR leaders that would probably disagree.

So psychologically and physically, what better PED is out there? Or do you think the idea of a PED is a myth?

Yeah, and there's also a long list of amphetamines users in the HOF, and one who owns the alltime homerun record. There's also multiple players ( including HOF players like schmidt) that have said the impact greenies have had on baseball DWARF'S the impact steroids have had on baseball.

Should I assume that they help that much ?

I find it funny that you refuse to believe ( judging by your arguements with others on this very thread) amphetamines, corkedbats, spitballs, ritalin, etc, " help " a lot, but deem steroids as the ultimate performance enhancing drug that can turn bobby bonilla into mickey mantle with one injection.

You use the " look how many suspected steroid users have won mvp's " arguement, yeah well look at all the things greenies users have accomplished, and corked bat users. Spitball man gaylord perry got to 300 wins because of that type of cheating, so don't give me this" lower form " of cheating crap.

Also we'd be assuming that no players from the past juiced up ( schmidt was clearly lying when he said no player during his time used steroids), I guess he must of forgotten tom house's confession to abusing horse steroids and greenies at the same time.

Or what about that book on mantle, where a friend of his states mantle suspected steroids was possible for a " odd " growth spurt he had as a teen ?

Something to think about....

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Steroids = Vastly overrated as a " performance enhancing drug ".

There's a long list of MVP winners and HR leaders that would probably disagree.

So psychologically and physically, what better PED is out there? Or do you think the idea of a PED is a myth?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Amphetamines actually cause serious health problems. Like steroids it's negative sideffects pose greater risk and danger than any possible benefit it would provide you. Mike schmidt used greenies in his career, and even said so himself that if he " knew " about anabolic steroid use in baseball, he would of been tempted to take the drug.

The only reason I could see an amphetamines user not experimenting with steroids is lazyness. Steroids are a process, proper workouts, better eating, it's actually hardwork, but in the longrun benefits an athlete a lot. Tom house had this problem himself, he misused multiple types of steroids during his career, and it resulted in multiple injuries for him. Amphetamines you just take, nothingelse, no workout, nothing, they " enhance " your performance that day you take them.

One guy does not make your blanket statement true, or even logical. Steroids are on another planet from greenies. Would most take that leap; who knows. Should we just assume everyone in history "would have" done them?

(1)Also, I believe that when When doctoring a ball was banned, they didn't use a new ball every couple of minutes.(1) Defacing the ball had negatives other than fooling a hitter. Infact, more specifically with regard to the spitter, (2)my understanding is that is was in fact largely a health issue. The country was pushing through the influenza pandemic and noone wanted people's fluids on the ball out of fear.(2)

1. Not every couple of minutes, but it was up to the umps discretion. The idea was to keep the ball as visible as possible for the hitters. The ball was still being discolored here and there, but nothing like how the soggy, mushy, darkened glob of before ended up.

2. If people who that scared of the fluids, they wouldn't have grandfathered two pitchers per team to continue throwing trick pitches would they?

[GnomeansGno]

Steroids = Vastly overrated as a " performance enhancing drug ".

[Horror]

You're assumption is that they would have used steroids had they been available? This is flawed. What are the health risks and commitment needed to cork a bat? Same with all the others; they are one time things, used by a single player whenever they choose. A greenie for a pick-me up, or corking for a time they're feeling fatigued. The use of steroids, especially to the degree in which Bonds allegedly used, is a major decision and commitment. To blindly assume they all "would have" done steroids also, is to put them all on the same level of risks, impact, commitment, etc. Too much of a reach.



Well, the true deadball was before 1911. In 1911 they introduced the cork center to the ball, making it more lively, but the impact was only felt for a couple of seasons. Pitchers soon countered this with perfecting the emery ball and the shine ball. The baseball become softened up and deadened during the course of the game from being doused in tobacco juice and dirt. It became mush, corked center or not. This was not against the rules at the time, it was just how the game was played.

The true changes came in 1920 when a new ball was put into play more often, and pitchers (except for Burleigh Grimes and some others) weren't allowed to throw trick pitches. So you have hitters seeing the ball better, and the ball remains as lively in the 9th inning as it was in the 1st inning. More and more hitters began copying Babe's uppercut swing and they switched to thicker barreled and thinner handled bats like him, new enclosed ballparks were being built or altered, fielders mitts changed throughout the '20's because balls were being hit harder. It's no wonder the attendance increased.

Amphetamines actually cause serious health problems. Like steroids it's negative sideffects pose greater risk and danger than any possible benefit it would provide you. Mike schmidt used greenies in his career, and even said so himself that if he " knew " about anabolic steroid use in baseball, he would of been tempted to take the drug.

The only reason I could see an amphetamines user not experimenting with steroids is lazyness. Steroids are a process, proper workouts, better eating, it's actually hardwork, but in the longrun benefits an athlete a lot. Tom house had this problem himself, he misused multiple types of steroids during his career, and it resulted in multiple injuries for him. Amphetamines you just take, nothingelse, no workout, nothing, they " enhance " your performance that day you take them.


Also, I believe that when When doctoring a ball was banned, they didn't use a new ball every couple of minutes. Defacing the ball had negatives other than fooling a hitter. Infact, more specifically with regard to the spitter, my understanding is that is was in fact largely a health issue. The country was pushing through the influenza pandemic and noone wanted people's fluids on the ball out of fear.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I see your point sort of, but that still doesnt change the fact that baseball players and pitchers have cheated for years. Those same guy's who used amphetamines, corked their bats, threw spitballs, etc, I'm sure would of used steroids to " enhance " their performance if it was available to them backthen.

You're assumption is that they would have used steroids had they been available? This is flawed. What are the health risks and commitment needed to cork a bat? Same with all the others; they are one time things, used by a single player whenever they choose. A greenie for a pick-me up, or corking for a time they're feeling fatigued. The use of steroids, especially to the degree in which Bonds allegedly used, is a major decision and commitment. To blindly assume they all "would have" done steroids also, is to put them all on the same level of risks, impact, commitment, etc. Too much of a reach.

BTW, wasn't the deadball era caused by multiple pitchers cheating ?

Well, the true deadball was before 1911. In 1911 they introduced the cork center to the ball, making it more lively, but the impact was only felt for a couple of seasons. Pitchers soon countered this with perfecting the emery ball and the shine ball. The baseball become softened up and deadened during the course of the game from being doused in tobacco juice and dirt. It became mush, corked center or not. This was not against the rules at the time, it was just how the game was played.

The true changes came in 1920 when a new ball was put into play more often, and pitchers (except for Burleigh Grimes and some others) weren't allowed to throw trick pitches. So you have hitters seeing the ball better, and the ball remains as lively in the 9th inning as it was in the 1st inning. More and more hitters began copying Babe's uppercut swing and they switched to thicker barreled and thinner handled bats like him, new enclosed ballparks were being built or altered, fielders mitts changed throughout the '20's because balls were being hit harder. It's no wonder the attendance increased.