Greenies = Steroids = Pine Tar

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Great thread - Finally someone with some sense. The simple fact is the HOF is infested with cheaters, this is a fact nobody can deny. Greenies, steroids, corkedbats, too much pinetar, spitballs, ritalin, etc, all ways to cheat, no doubt about it.

CITC,

If everything against the rules is cheating, then where does it stop? If a pitcher wears a batting glove or he wears white sleeves is it on the same level as steroids? Most pitchers lick their fingers, and they're supposed to wipe it off on their pants. Having pitched for many years, it's pretty easy to get away with not actually wiping the licked finger(s) off. Not hard to fool the ump. Is that cheating?

What about a hitter who stands outside the batters box. Umps don't enforce that, but technically it's against the rules. Pitchers don't stand with their entire foot against the rubber like the rule states, so is that the same level as steroids? The pine tar rule is a joke, it helps with nothing. Just like there is a rule against how much tape you can have on the bat. How about middle infielders who deke runners? Could be considered cheating.

Pine tar doesn't help with anything but grip. Corked bats don't help with power. The edge with a corked bat is more psychological than anything. Just knowing you have an edge, is an edge.

Most here probably agree with you that greenies are cheating. It's just on a different level than steroids in every way. The benefits don't come close to approaching what steroids can do mentally and physically for a player.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Let me rephrase, can someone with credibility tell me if I'm wrong... ie: someone with proof not just "NO YOUR WRONG IM RIGHT"

Thanks

Yeah, I have no credibility? Aren't you the one questioning whether steroids can allow your muscles to recover faster? Anyway.

[Astro]

Yeah, I have no credibility? Aren't you the one questioning whether steroids can allow your muscles to recover faster? Anyway.

My god, how old are you, honestly... I said I want proof that I am wrong, give me a link to a medical site or something... not just "I'm right, your wrong"

Read people's posts before you get all defensive

[Sultan_1895-1948]

My god, how old are you, honestly... I said I want proof that I am wrong, give me a link to a medical site or something... not just "I'm right, your wrong"

Read people's posts before you get all defensive

And before you take a shot at someone's credibility, you should consider who you're typing to. This shouldn't be about us, but about the subject matter.

Others could spend the time to provide you links maybe, or you could try doing the search yourself.

It's really pretty common knowledge. The effect of anabolic steroids is to increase the body's ability to use protein to make muscle. Anabolic steroids help send the amino acids back to the muscles. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins needed by the muscles to grow. Muscle tissue repairs quicker, and you can workout longer and harder, plain and simple. There's no such thing as a necessary "light" day in the gym when you're on roids.

[johncap]

And before you take a shot at someone's credibility, you should consider who you're typing to. This shouldn't be about us, but about the subject matter.

Others could spend the time to provide you links maybe, or you could try doing the search yourself.

It's really pretty common knowledge. The effect of anabolic steroids is to increase the body's ability to use protein to make muscle. Anabolic steroids help send the amino acids back to the muscles. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins needed by the muscles to grow. Muscle tissue repairs quicker, and you can workout longer and harder, plain and simple. There's no such thing as a necessary "light" day in the gym when you're on roids.

It is pretty common knowledge that one of the big side effects that produces an advantage for users is the ability to recover more quickly and thus work out more often and longer. Those who try to say some of Bonds' bulk came from working harder are kidding themselves. He was able to work more and harder BECAUSE of the juice.

[CrimeInTheCards]

CITC,

If everything against the rules is cheating, then where does it stop? If a pitcher wears a batting glove or he wears white sleeves is it on the same level as steroids? Most pitchers lick their fingers, and they're supposed to wipe it off on their pants. Having pitched for many years, it's pretty easy to get away with not actually wiping the licked finger(s) off. Not hard to fool the ump. Is that cheating?

What about a hitter who stands outside the batters box. Umps don't enforce that, but technically it's against the rules. Pitchers don't stand with their entire foot against the rubber like the rule states, so is that the same level as steroids? The pine tar rule is a joke, it helps with nothing. Just like there is a rule against how much tape you can have on the bat. How about middle infielders who deke runners? Could be considered cheating.

Pine tar doesn't help with anything but grip. Corked bats don't help with power. The edge with a corked bat is more psychological than anything. Just knowing you have an edge, is an edge.

Most here probably agree with you that greenies are cheating. It's just on a different level than steroids in every way. The benefits don't come close to approaching what steroids can do mentally and physically for a player.

I dont agree with singling one form of cheating out, it's not fair at all. I cant speculate on how much steroids helps, because I've never taken the drug. However I do know people who have, and all They've told me was it helped them recover from injuries and workouts faster. Besides that, I dont know much about the drug and it's benefits. I do however know amphetamines helps a lot, I've taken it and performed better because of it at soccer, hockey, and baseball. They make you faster, more alert, and more durable. They do have negative sideffects, but are worth taking if you want to enhance your performance. Corked bats, spitballs, etc, all help someway, if not they wouldnt be used by players and pitchers. Norm cash said he corked in 1961, and won the batting title that year. Perry's entire career was aided by the spitball. Ritalin is also used too. It helps players and pitchers focus better. There's lots of ways to cheat, it's always happened, and it always will.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I dont agree with singling one form of cheating out, it's not fair at all. I cant speculate on how much steroids helps, because I've never taken the drug. However I do know people who have, and all They've told me was it helped them recover from injuries and workouts faster. Besides that, I dont know much about the drug and it's benefits.

We really don't need to single steroids out. Steroids single themselves out by being what they are. They are head and shoulders above and beyond any other level of cheating, and imo are right up there with gambling in terms of being bad for the game.

You do acknowledge that steroids help you recover from injuries and workouts, so you understand that if someone is dedicated enough to working out, he can become much stronger than he would be otherwise. In regards to steroids and how they might help on the ballfield, the benefits run the gammet from psychological to physical. It's not so much about gaining pure strength, but possessing stamina with that strength, and at the same time increasing muscle reflexes and quickness. In essence, as a hitter, your margin of error is higher than it should be. Especially in the case of someone who should be declining rather than putting up numbers they never had before, even in their prime.

I do however know amphetamines helps a lot, I've taken it and performed better because of it at soccer, hockey, and baseball. They make you faster, more alert, and more durable. They do have negative sideffects, but are worth taking if you want to enhance your performance. Corked bats, spitballs, etc, all help someway, if not they wouldnt be used by players and pitchers. Norm cash said he corked in 1961, and won the batting title that year. Perry's entire career was aided by the spitball. Ritalin is also used too. It helps players and pitchers focus better. There's lots of ways to cheat, it's always happened, and it always will.

No doubt amphetamines made you feel faster, but were you actually faster, or did you just feel faster because of the increased energy?

Regarding corked bats; you might gain a little bat speed which increases your margin for error slightly, but any benefit of that is lost when you don't have as much barrel mass. They might be ok for a slappy hitter like Alex Cora, or a struggling Sosa who maybe was feeling fatigued, but they probably didn't really understand what it does.

The idea is the hole itself, and the weight that is taken away from the bat. Doesn't matter that you fill it with, it doesn't impact how hard the ball will come off. Cork is typically chosen because it's so light. After all, what would be the point of drilling a hole, and filling it with a substance as heavy or heavier than actual wood. In terms of simple physics you have let's say... d=ms; so distance equals mass times swing speed (velocity). While you increase s, you're decreasing m. It's said that on a 400 foot hit, about 3 feet will be taken off the drive if it's hit with a corked bat.

Norm Cash's edge was most likely psychological, as well as his slightly increased margin for error at the plate. Power wise though, it didn't help him. Science tells us as much.

[CrimeInTheCards]

We really don't need to single steroids out. Steroids single themselves out by being what they are. They are head and shoulders above and beyond any other level of cheating, and imo are right up there with gambling in terms of being bad for the game.

You do acknowledge that steroids help you recover from injuries and workouts, so you understand that if someone is dedicated enough to working out, he can become much stronger than he would be otherwise. In regards to steroids and how they might help on the ballfield, the benefits run the gammet from psychological to physical. It's not so much about gaining pure strength, but possessing stamina with that strength, and at the same time increasing muscle reflexes and quickness. In essence, as a hitter, your margin of error is higher than it should be. Especially in the case of someone who should be declining rather than putting up numbers they never had before, even in their prime.

No doubt amphetamines made you feel faster, but were you actually faster, or did you just feel faster because of the increased energy?

Regarding corked bats; you might gain a little bat speed which increases your margin for error slightly, but any benefit of that is lost when you don't have as much barrel mass. They might be ok for a slappy hitter like Alex Cora, or a struggling Sosa who maybe was feeling fatigued, but they probably didn't really understand what it does.

The idea is the hole itself, and the weight that is taken away from the bat. Doesn't matter that you fill it with, it doesn't impact how hard the ball will come off. Cork is typically chosen because it's so light. After all, what would be the point of drilling a hole, and filling it with a substance as heavy or heavier than actual wood. In terms of simple physics you have let's say... d=ms; so distance equals mass times swing speed (velocity). While you increase s, you're decreasing m. It's said that on a 400 foot hit, about 3 feet will be taken off the drive if it's hit with a corked bat.

Norm Cash's edge was most likely psychological, as well as his slightly increased margin for error at the plate. Power wise though, it didn't help him. Science tells us as much.

Sultran, I'm sorry but I must disagree. I dont think any form of cheating should be singled out, doesnt matter which helps more or not. The intent is what matters the most. A player choosing to use a corkedbat has the same intention as a player who uses steroids, and that intention is to get an edge over his opponents, pure and simple. As for amphetamines, I guess I'll never get you to agree with me, but amphetamines do help, and a lot, many players have suspected that with the loss of greenies baseball numbers will drop. Many have speculated that it's impact on baseball has been larger than steroids, and as an athlete myself who's used greenies, without them you wont be nearly as productive as you were on them. You'll see nextyear.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultran, I'm sorry but I must disagree. I dont think any form of cheating should be singled out, doesnt matter which helps more or not. The intent is what matters the most. A player choosing to use a corkedbat has the same intention as a player who uses steroids, and that intention is to get an edge over his opponents, pure and simple. As for amphetamines, I guess I'll never get you to agree with me, but amphetamines do help, and a lot, many players have suspected that with the loss of greenies baseball numbers will drop. Many have speculated that it's impact on baseball has been larger than steroids, and as an athlete myself who's used greenies, without them you wont be nearly as productive as you were on them. You'll see nextyear.

Ever since this Bonds stuff came out, there's been a lot of this. Comparing a minor level of cheating with steroids, claiming steroids don't help, others were doing it too, etc. I'm wondering if you're a Bonds fan, and if your stance changed at all because of the recent news?

Maybe not, but I still think you're selling steroids way short. I agree that greenies could probably help many get through the mental and physical grind of a season. I believe though, that they are mostly taken to bring someone up to their normal level of play. Not to take them way past it like steroids. Your point is cheating is cheating, and I can respect that.

Here's a question; could you almost say that the Yankees are cheating compared to the Devil Rays? The Yankees exude a winning attitude, and an atmosphere condusive to more focus and increased adrenanline. At the same time it adds pressure, but most actually perform well under pressure, it's how they got to the show. The Devil Rays hardly have any fans coming to the ballpark, and it doesn't exactly get you pumped up to take the field. The extra boost isn't there. Don't you think the Yanks gain an edge in that sense?

[CrimeInTheCards]

Ever since this Bonds stuff came out, there's been a lot of this. Comparing a minor level of cheating with steroids, claiming steroids don't help, others were doing it too, etc. I'm wondering if you're a Bonds fan, and if your stance changed at all because of the recent news?

Maybe not, but I still think you're selling steroids way short. I agree that greenies could probably help many get through the mental and physical grind of a season. I believe though, that they are mostly taken to bring someone up to their normal level of play. Not to take them way past it like steroids. Your point is cheating is cheating, and I can respect that.

Here's a question; could you almost say that the Yankees are cheating compared to the Devil Rays? The Yankees exude a winning attitude, and an atmosphere condusive to more focus and increased adrenanline. At the same time it adds pressure, but most actually perform well under pressure, it's how they got to the show. The Devil Rays hardly have any fans coming to the ballpark, and it doesn't exactly get you pumped up to take the field. The extra boost isn't there. Don't you think the Yanks gain an edge in that sense?

Sultan, I've always known about baseball players cheating, it's common knowledge. Nobody seemed to care however till the whole steroid thing, now all of a sudden baseball is a ' pure sport '. I'm not a bonds fan, To be honest I never realized how great of a player he was till few years ago, which goes to show you how underrated he's always been. About steroids, I dont know what they do really, never used them before, never will, I've only known a few people who have used the drug for recovery. That's all I know about it. Greenies however I know a lot about because I take them, and know athletes who take them, and they help a lot, pure and simple. It's no pyschiological feeling, they do help you perform better in athletics. Anyway, this arguement isnt going anywhere, so I think we both just have to agree to disagree.

[west coast orange and black]

i believe that not all cheating is the same. there are degrees as to how the player's abilities and, ultimately, his achievements are affected.

however, one of the main sticking points in the greenies = steroids (greenies v steroids) argument is that it can be easily concluded that those who used greenies when steroids were not readily available would have used steroids if available. after all, players have always sought an edge. players have always sought comfort against the grind of a season.

so, removing the laundry list of attributes and affectations of the two groups, which clearly falls in favor of steroids: grenies (could) = steroids, depending on a few circumstances. mainly, used when steroids were not around.

[Metal Ed]

No offense, but I stopped reading right here. You do realize that they're able to spend so much time in the weight room BECAUSE of steroids.

Agreed. It's impossible to believe that these guys can work out like bodybuilders AND recover while also dealing with the daily grind of playing ball. I suspect that the recovery aspect of steroids is a huge part of their appeal.

[Blackout]

Sure it does. It helps players focus better.

if a player doesn't have ADD, ritalin is a placebo effect. plus it calms you down more, making it harder to play.

again, I have experience with ritalin.

[ESPNFan]

Sure it does. It helps players focus better.

Again your almost criminally misinformed. Ritalin is taken because its a stimulant. Its basicly a slightly weakened amphetamine that allows children or with new diagnosis Adults ith ADHD to regulate their stimuli through their central nervous systems. I have to do more research on it but Ritalin is widely abused as a stimulant and for its appitite surpressant qualities. There has also been some recent concern about small children using it because of ritalin linked deaths where children have shown damage to their hearts.

Basicly Ritalin is one of the easiest perscription quality stimulants to obtain.

[Let Shoeless In]

CITC,

If everything against the rules is cheating, then where does it stop? If a pitcher wears a batting glove or he wears white sleeves is it on the same level as steroids? Most pitchers lick their fingers, and they're supposed to wipe it off on their pants. Having pitched for many years, it's pretty easy to get away with not actually wiping the licked finger(s) off. Not hard to fool the ump. Is that cheating?

What about a hitter who stands outside the batters box. Umps don't enforce that, but technically it's against the rules. Pitchers don't stand with their entire foot against the rubber like the rule states, so is that the same level as steroids? The pine tar rule is a joke, it helps with nothing. Just like there is a rule against how much tape you can have on the bat. How about middle infielders who deke runners? Could be considered cheating.

Pine tar doesn't help with anything but grip. Corked bats don't help with power. The edge with a corked bat is more psychological than anything. Just knowing you have an edge, is an edge.

Most here probably agree with you that greenies are cheating. It's just on a different level than steroids in every way. The benefits don't come close to approaching what steroids can do mentally and physically for a player.

Thank you for echoing my thoughts. I think it is really hard to figure this one out. If you suspend Bonds, then who else must you suspend? Giambi will be the first on that list. Right? What would the be suspended for? The clause 'What is good for baseball' clause? I guess that would work. But, who else would have gotten away with it? What do you do with the stats & records that have been set by these player? Bonds is going to path Ruth. Makes me sick thinking that Bonds got there with the help of these performace enhancers. While all cheating is wrong I dont think that all forms of cheaters can be grouped into the same category. Just like a murderer is not given the same sentence as a thief in the court of law. Each punishment must fit the crime. While spitballers and those carrying emory boards to scuff the baseballs, the umpire has control of that in a game and can kick a player out for those cheats. Steroids is changing you every day all the time, affecting everything you are doing in a game, there is no reprocutions for that in the context of the game. Ethical? Sterioid users are guilty. Legally? Steroid users are guilty. But, where do you go from here? Bonds, McGwire, Gimabi etc. were not breaking baseball's rules. Ethical and federal laws? Yes!

I guess I have just talked myself into this; if the player is found guilty of breaking a law, which these players did by possesing these drugs, then they can be banned by baseball if so deemed by major league baseballs execs. But what do you do with the stats and records?