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  • #46
    putting aside the stats and records for the time being, let shoeless in, the "what is good for baseball' clause can not be applied to the present circumstances of bonds because the clause is superceded by the 2003-06 player agreement, which clearly specifies how a player may be defined as guilty of using a banned substance, and what the punishment would be.

    players can not be "found guilty" of "breaking a law" by baseball.
    major league baseball executives have no power over the matter.
    the player agreement, for better and for worse - in this case, much worse - controls the issue.
    Last edited by west coast orange and black; 03-20-2006, 05:25 PM.
    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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    • #47
      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
      putting aside the stats and records for the time being, let shoeless in, the "what is good for baseball' clause can not be applied to the present circumstances of bonds because the clause is superceded by the 2003-06 player agreement, which clearly specifies how a player may be defined as guilty of using a banned substance, and what the punishment would be.

      players can not be "found guilty" of "breaking a law" by baseball.
      major league baseball executives have no power over the matter.
      the player agreement, for better and for worse - in this case, much worse - controls the issue.
      Legally I agree with you WC, but what about what's in the best interest of the game 50 years from now? When those kids look back on this era and read about it, Bonds will no doubt be the front man because of his assault on the record. Could Bud minimize the historical damage by doing something to Bonds right now?

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      • #48
        If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? In the clubhouse? Why not rub some of the cream on himself in the dugout? Chug a gallon of the "clear" after the game while being interviewed?

        Perhaps because he was breaking the law........ Hmmmm.

        As for the "other cheaters are in the HOF, so let Barry in too" argument. I find it absolutely incredible.

        If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

        "Yes your honor, I cut off that lady's head and buried her in my garden. But one time, 50 yeras ago, a guy name Johnny did something similar and got away with it!!"

        The Judge says "Well, then, case dismissed!!!"
        "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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        • #49
          sultan: ...but what about what's in the best interest of the game 50 years from now? ... Could Bud minimize the historical damage by doing something to Bonds right now?

          50 years from now there will be a work agreement in place that more than likely will cover all of what is covered today, and then some. whatever happens not to be covered could, theoretically, be directed upon by the then-commissioner, bud III.

          bud the present can not do anything to bonds.
          the contract is signed. a positive test result from a properly administered screening must be present. even then, the work agreement takes precedent.

          bud's hands are tied.
          "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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          • #50
            Originally posted by StanTheMan
            If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? In the clubhouse? Why not rub some of the cream on himself in the dugout? Chug a gallon of the "clear" after the game while being interviewed?

            Perhaps because he was breaking the law........ Hmmmm.

            As for the "other cheaters are in the HOF, so let Barry in too" argument. I find it absolutely incredible.

            If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

            "Yes your honor, I cut off that lady's head and buried her in my garden. But one time, 50 yeras ago, a guy name Johnny did something similar and got away with it!!"

            The Judge says "Well, then, case dismissed!!!"
            According to bonds he was using this stuff in the clubhouse in full view of everybody.

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            • #51
              stm: If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? ... If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

              if bonds did inject in the manner that you posed, say, at pac bell, he broke *the law*, as in the california penal code and the ca health and safety code. it would be up to the proper authorities to take action against him.
              mlb is not that proper authority.

              i have not come across anyone here condoning illegal activity, stm.
              "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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              • #52
                Ubiquitous: According to bonds he was using this stuff in the clubhouse in full view of everybody.

                right. and according to reporters and trainers and players bonds rubbed ointments in plain view.
                "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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                • #53
                  [QUOTE=west coast orange and black
                  i have not come across anyone here condoning illegal activity, stm.[/QUOTE]


                  IMO, saying "he is a HOF'er for sure"
                  or
                  "he did not break any baseball rules"
                  or
                  "I need more evidence"
                  or
                  "he was a HOF'er before he took anything"

                  is absolutely condoning his behavior.... and his behavior is illegal, with the facts as I currently understand them.

                  Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.
                  "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by StanTheMan
                    IMO, saying "he is a HOF'er for sure"
                    or
                    "he did not break any baseball rules"
                    or
                    "I need more evidence"
                    or
                    "he was a HOF'er before he took anything"

                    is absolutely condoning his behavior.... and his behavior is illegal, with the facts as I currently understand them.

                    Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.
                    He's not a HOF'r if the voters decide he's not. There is nothing ordained- it's an election. He wouldn't be the first to have pissed off enough writers.

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                    • #55
                      stm: "he is a HOF'er for sure"
                      if it is a person's opinion that the voters will vote bonds in, how is bonds gaining entrance tantamount to that person condoning illegal activity?

                      "he did not break any baseball rules"
                      does not equal "he did not break the rules of society". one can quite easily agree to both at once.

                      "I need more evidence"
                      maybe not everyone is as insightful as others.

                      "he was a HOF'er before he took anything"
                      suppose bonds used on 1 jan 1999. before that date he did not have hof credentials is what you believe? right on, man.

                      Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.
                      coolio. it's yer opinion.
                      what say you to the voters who knowingly voted for players who used illegal drugs, or those who used drugs illegally?
                      "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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                      • #56
                        The future

                        im curious to know ur opinion on this steroid haters. What if in 10 years they create safe products that get players bigger and stronger, with the same effects as the really good steroids. And it is made legal. Do we still look at Bonds in a bad lite, or as a guy ahead of his time? Or do we still hold it against players who use any means to break records set by players from a far away era that we hold on too high a pedistool?

                        In my humble opinion, i have more respect for guys who juice and work at their hitting more than guys in the past who drank, got fat, and did nothing to acheive their goals. They only used their god given talent, and maybe som eworked at improving themselves as players, but not to the degree players do today.

                        Only with the advancement of sport supplement science in the next 50 years can we truly judge the records and players of today.

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                        • #57
                          forgot one thing

                          i hope bonds wipes all records off the charts so he can laugh at them all. Because no one will be able to do anything without legal recourse. Get 800 Barry, and laugh at them as they cry about it. For one thing, remember people, he feeds off everyone who hates him. He gets better as mor epeople hate him.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jaquishsucks
                            i hope bonds wipes all records off the charts so he can laugh at them all. Because no one will be able to do anything without legal recourse. Get 800 Barry, and laugh at them as they cry about it. For one thing, remember people, he feeds off everyone who hates him. He gets better as mor epeople hate him.
                            You're not a baseball fan. I can't print here what my opinon of your obnoxious comments is. It's also clearly between the lines exactly where you're coming from. Go wipe.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by johncap
                              You're not a baseball fan. I can't print here what my opinon of your obnoxious comments is. It's also clearly between the lines exactly where you're coming from. Go wipe.
                              once again; na-na-na-na-na-na! I am a baseball fan, sorry i don't have huge erections over players from the past. Todays players are by far better so if anything, we should look at past players as inferior. Like i said, intelligent people will wait some time before flying off the handle about records and baseball integrity. This "integrity" talk makes me sick. NOTHING has integrity. It's all made up and for some reason people have this romantic view of the past.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by jaquishsucks
                                once again; na-na-na-na-na-na! I am a baseball fan, sorry i don't have huge erections over players from the past. Todays players are by far better so if anything, we should look at past players as inferior. Like i said, intelligent people will wait some time before flying off the handle about records and baseball integrity. This "integrity" talk makes me sick. NOTHING has integrity. It's all made up and for some reason people have this romantic view of the past.
                                While your point is understood, the taunting nature of your posts is uncalled for and absolutely frowned upon on this site. We don't do that here.
                                Last edited by Captain Cold Nose; 03-24-2006, 08:55 AM.
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