Greenies = Steroids = Pine Tar

[johncap]

IMO, saying "he is a HOF'er for sure"
or
"he did not break any baseball rules"
or
"I need more evidence"
or
"he was a HOF'er before he took anything"

is absolutely condoning his behavior.... and his behavior is illegal, with the facts as I currently understand them.

Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.

He's not a HOF'r if the voters decide he's not. There is nothing ordained- it's an election. He wouldn't be the first to have pissed off enough writers.

[StanTheMan]

[QUOTE=west coast orange and black
i have not come across anyone here condoning illegal activity, stm.[/QUOTE]


IMO, saying "he is a HOF'er for sure"
or
"he did not break any baseball rules"
or
"I need more evidence"
or
"he was a HOF'er before he took anything"

is absolutely condoning his behavior.... and his behavior is illegal, with the facts as I currently understand them.

Anything other than NOT voting him in the HOF with the facts we currently have is condining illegal activity, IMO.

[west coast orange and black]

Ubiquitous: According to bonds he was using this stuff in the clubhouse in full view of everybody.

right. and according to reporters and trainers and players bonds rubbed ointments in plain view.

[west coast orange and black]

stm: If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? ... If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

if bonds did inject in the manner that you posed, say, at pac bell, he broke *the law*, as in the california penal code and the ca health and safety code. it would be up to the proper authorities to take action against him.
mlb is not that proper authority.

i have not come across anyone here condoning illegal activity, stm.

[Ubiquitous]

If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? In the clubhouse? Why not rub some of the cream on himself in the dugout? Chug a gallon of the "clear" after the game while being interviewed?

Perhaps because he was breaking the law........ Hmmmm.

As for the "other cheaters are in the HOF, so let Barry in too" argument. I find it absolutely incredible.

If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

"Yes your honor, I cut off that lady's head and buried her in my garden. But one time, 50 yeras ago, a guy name Johnny did something similar and got away with it!!"

The Judge says "Well, then, case dismissed!!!"

According to bonds he was using this stuff in the clubhouse in full view of everybody.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: ...but what about what's in the best interest of the game 50 years from now? ... Could Bud minimize the historical damage by doing something to Bonds right now?

50 years from now there will be a work agreement in place that more than likely will cover all of what is covered today, and then some. whatever happens not to be covered could, theoretically, be directed upon by the then-commissioner, bud III.

bud the present can not do anything to bonds.
the contract is signed. a positive test result from a properly administered screening must be present. even then, the work agreement takes precedent.

bud's hands are tied.

[StanTheMan]

If Bonds did nothing wrong, why did he not inject himself right in the arse in the on deck circle? In the clubhouse? Why not rub some of the cream on himself in the dugout? Chug a gallon of the "clear" after the game while being interviewed?

Perhaps because he was breaking the law........ Hmmmm.

As for the "other cheaters are in the HOF, so let Barry in too" argument. I find it absolutely incredible.

If someone gets away with murder... do we stop prosecuting future murderers?

"Yes your honor, I cut off that lady's head and buried her in my garden. But one time, 50 yeras ago, a guy name Johnny did something similar and got away with it!!"

The Judge says "Well, then, case dismissed!!!"

[Sultan_1895-1948]

putting aside the stats and records for the time being, let shoeless in, the "what is good for baseball' clause can not be applied to the present circumstances of bonds because the clause is superceded by the 2003-06 player agreement, which clearly specifies how a player may be defined as guilty of using a banned substance, and what the punishment would be.

players can not be "found guilty" of "breaking a law" by baseball.
major league baseball executives have no power over the matter.
the player agreement, for better and for worse - in this case, much worse - controls the issue.

Legally I agree with you WC, but what about what's in the best interest of the game 50 years from now? When those kids look back on this era and read about it, Bonds will no doubt be the front man because of his assault on the record. Could Bud minimize the historical damage by doing something to Bonds right now?

[west coast orange and black]

putting aside the stats and records for the time being, let shoeless in, the "what is good for baseball' clause can not be applied to the present circumstances of bonds because the clause is superceded by the 2003-06 player agreement, which clearly specifies how a player may be defined as guilty of using a banned substance, and what the punishment would be.

players can not be "found guilty" of "breaking a law" by baseball.
major league baseball executives have no power over the matter.
the player agreement, for better and for worse - in this case, much worse - controls the issue.

[Let Shoeless In]

CITC,

If everything against the rules is cheating, then where does it stop? If a pitcher wears a batting glove or he wears white sleeves is it on the same level as steroids? Most pitchers lick their fingers, and they're supposed to wipe it off on their pants. Having pitched for many years, it's pretty easy to get away with not actually wiping the licked finger(s) off. Not hard to fool the ump. Is that cheating?

What about a hitter who stands outside the batters box. Umps don't enforce that, but technically it's against the rules. Pitchers don't stand with their entire foot against the rubber like the rule states, so is that the same level as steroids? The pine tar rule is a joke, it helps with nothing. Just like there is a rule against how much tape you can have on the bat. How about middle infielders who deke runners? Could be considered cheating.

Pine tar doesn't help with anything but grip. Corked bats don't help with power. The edge with a corked bat is more psychological than anything. Just knowing you have an edge, is an edge.

Most here probably agree with you that greenies are cheating. It's just on a different level than steroids in every way. The benefits don't come close to approaching what steroids can do mentally and physically for a player.

Thank you for echoing my thoughts. I think it is really hard to figure this one out. If you suspend Bonds, then who else must you suspend? Giambi will be the first on that list. Right? What would the be suspended for? The clause 'What is good for baseball' clause? I guess that would work. But, who else would have gotten away with it? What do you do with the stats & records that have been set by these player? Bonds is going to path Ruth. Makes me sick thinking that Bonds got there with the help of these performace enhancers. While all cheating is wrong I dont think that all forms of cheaters can be grouped into the same category. Just like a murderer is not given the same sentence as a thief in the court of law. Each punishment must fit the crime. While spitballers and those carrying emory boards to scuff the baseballs, the umpire has control of that in a game and can kick a player out for those cheats. Steroids is changing you every day all the time, affecting everything you are doing in a game, there is no reprocutions for that in the context of the game. Ethical? Sterioid users are guilty. Legally? Steroid users are guilty. But, where do you go from here? Bonds, McGwire, Gimabi etc. were not breaking baseball's rules. Ethical and federal laws? Yes!

I guess I have just talked myself into this; if the player is found guilty of breaking a law, which these players did by possesing these drugs, then they can be banned by baseball if so deemed by major league baseballs execs. But what do you do with the stats and records?

[ESPNFan]

Sure it does. It helps players focus better.

Again your almost criminally misinformed. Ritalin is taken because its a stimulant. Its basicly a slightly weakened amphetamine that allows children or with new diagnosis Adults ith ADHD to regulate their stimuli through their central nervous systems. I have to do more research on it but Ritalin is widely abused as a stimulant and for its appitite surpressant qualities. There has also been some recent concern about small children using it because of ritalin linked deaths where children have shown damage to their hearts.

Basicly Ritalin is one of the easiest perscription quality stimulants to obtain.

[Blackout]

Sure it does. It helps players focus better.

if a player doesn't have ADD, ritalin is a placebo effect. plus it calms you down more, making it harder to play.

again, I have experience with ritalin.

[Metal Ed]

No offense, but I stopped reading right here. You do realize that they're able to spend so much time in the weight room BECAUSE of steroids.

Agreed. It's impossible to believe that these guys can work out like bodybuilders AND recover while also dealing with the daily grind of playing ball. I suspect that the recovery aspect of steroids is a huge part of their appeal.

[west coast orange and black]

i believe that not all cheating is the same. there are degrees as to how the player's abilities and, ultimately, his achievements are affected.

however, one of the main sticking points in the greenies = steroids (greenies v steroids) argument is that it can be easily concluded that those who used greenies when steroids were not readily available would have used steroids if available. after all, players have always sought an edge. players have always sought comfort against the grind of a season.

so, removing the laundry list of attributes and affectations of the two groups, which clearly falls in favor of steroids: grenies (could) = steroids, depending on a few circumstances. mainly, used when steroids were not around.

[CrimeInTheCards]

Ever since this Bonds stuff came out, there's been a lot of this. Comparing a minor level of cheating with steroids, claiming steroids don't help, others were doing it too, etc. I'm wondering if you're a Bonds fan, and if your stance changed at all because of the recent news?

Maybe not, but I still think you're selling steroids way short. I agree that greenies could probably help many get through the mental and physical grind of a season. I believe though, that they are mostly taken to bring someone up to their normal level of play. Not to take them way past it like steroids. Your point is cheating is cheating, and I can respect that.

Here's a question; could you almost say that the Yankees are cheating compared to the Devil Rays? The Yankees exude a winning attitude, and an atmosphere condusive to more focus and increased adrenanline. At the same time it adds pressure, but most actually perform well under pressure, it's how they got to the show. The Devil Rays hardly have any fans coming to the ballpark, and it doesn't exactly get you pumped up to take the field. The extra boost isn't there. Don't you think the Yanks gain an edge in that sense?

Sultan, I've always known about baseball players cheating, it's common knowledge. Nobody seemed to care however till the whole steroid thing, now all of a sudden baseball is a ' pure sport '. I'm not a bonds fan, To be honest I never realized how great of a player he was till few years ago, which goes to show you how underrated he's always been. About steroids, I dont know what they do really, never used them before, never will, I've only known a few people who have used the drug for recovery. That's all I know about it. Greenies however I know a lot about because I take them, and know athletes who take them, and they help a lot, pure and simple. It's no pyschiological feeling, they do help you perform better in athletics. Anyway, this arguement isnt going anywhere, so I think we both just have to agree to disagree.