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  • #46
    ESPNFan and Taco De Muerte:

    Can you two just stick to what the other person wrote, rather than worry about who is or isn't qualified? Look at the links the other has written and worry about that.

    If you'd like to support what you'd written, please post that here. Otherwise, I'm not too sure of what the point is.

    Thanks.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    tros:

    I'm floored. You went above and beyond your already excellent standards. Now I'll have to figure out a way to reply to this. Wow!
    Last edited by Mattingly; 03-31-2006, 08:22 AM.
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
      espnfan, do you think that 15+ years of regularly scheduled steroid use without harm is a long enough time to state that steroids, if taken in moderate doses, cause no harm?
      15+ consecutive years of several (or more) cycles per year of potent steroids.
      Great question.....

      You know there are so many variables and factors that need to be looked at I'd be very wary of saying anything of the sort. First off everyone's physical makeup is different and could possibly respond to these drugs somewhat uniquely, for good or ill. Second depending on the substance you have various levels of toxic content. Winstol for instance is one of the more potent and toxic Anabolics, but its an oral so people still use it. Another is all the possible side effects that are suspected to be related to steroid use (tendon failure, growth plate closure, liver damage, reduction of the "good" cholesterol etc...).
      There would have to be some massive double blind controlled testing for a long period of time before I would say that these substances are safe, but you never know. BTW I'm not a Doctor nor a Medical Student so take my opinion for what it is....
      Last edited by ESPNFan; 03-31-2006, 08:29 AM.
      Get out the Vote!!!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by west coast orange and black
        espnfan, do you think that 15+ years of regularly scheduled steroid use without harm is a long enough time to state that steroids, if taken in moderate doses, cause no harm?
        15+ consecutive years of several (or more) cycles per year of potent steroids.
        I'd ask an open question here that may be relevant. Do people's bodies ever get some kind of immunity to PEDs, such as steroids?

        For alcohol, I've known small people, including women about 5'4" and 120 lbs at most, who could drink 300 lb guys under the table. The reason being that some of those guys were light drinkers, but the woman was a bartender who'd been drinking all of her life. She could down a large $8 drink in a bar where a mug of domestic beer costs $3.

        I've heard of rats out in the street (the ones that raid trash dumpsters) becoming immune to rat poison. Could that affect anything?

        As to causing no harm, since you'd said moderate doses, that's one thing. However, are these amongst the more potent steroids? Were the amounts reduced based upon their increased potency, as compared to others?

        If administered and supervised by an MD who knew about this, I might think that one's body would get accustomed to this, just as bodybuilders have been taking some form of steroids for ages. For some, over a long period of their competitive careers.
        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
        Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

        Comment


        • #49
          cheers to you, trosmok, for posting the obvious, the insightful, and the questionable all in one.
          hats off.

          the main reason why so many are referring to the bonds/substance issue as a witch hunt is because of the substances that have been used by players throughout the years. before the "steroids are much more powerful" flag is hoisted, please remember that baseball has needed but avoided to curtail/eradicate *substance* abuse, not just limited to *performance enhancers*.

          cynicism is indeed the emotion of the day. substance has endured in the clubhouses for decades, with much under watchful eyes and the supervision, even of trainers.

          double standards was mentioned. yeah, they do exist, in many areas.

          take bank of america, for one. bofa recently issued a press release stating that they could not participate in #715 (which is not a record*, by the way, but a milestone) because, egad, how would it appear to their clients, customers and board, being involved in a celebration of someone who has done so much wrong? that's showing brass ones, considering how actively they shamelessly participate in and earn billions by the current rule by corporatocracy.

          yeah, caca del toro is an apt description.

          and whittling down the greedy corporate interest would be a start in righting the ship that is the game that we love so much.


          * unless the claim is that it the record by a white player or something like that
          "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

          Comment


          • #50
            ESPNFan: Great question.....

            "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

            Comment


            • #51
              mattingly, think of a properly scheduled and maintained steroid cycle as a sort of tuneup for your car.

              as it has been painstakingly explained to me, each and every cycle is purposeful and useful. higher and more frequebt doses are not necessary exactly because of the regular and proper schedule.

              these moderate doses, two-three, of the most powerful steroids available, have been maintained for longer than a decade. there has been no need to reduce or increase dosages because the proper dosage has already been determined and administered.

              the remarkable human body does not get accustomed to water consumption, f'rinstance, and does not need more and more (higher doses) to replenish and satisfy.
              truly, great achievements can be had using substances in moderation and under proper care.

              you have asked several of the same questions regarding steroids that i have over the years, two-three. my answers have been passed from professional body builders, professional athletes, a very highly regarded bay area sports doctor and local fbi/secret service.
              "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

              Comment


              • #52
                Thanks for the reply, wcoab.
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                Comment


                • #53
                  Go back a few years when it was just two kids talkin' sports:

                  Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                  Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                  THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                  Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Questionable is an understatement

                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ... could not participate in #715 (which is not a record*, by the way, but a milestone) .....
                    * unless the claim is that it the record by a white player or something like that
                    Nice catch, wcoab, thanks. In my efforts to remain veracious, I still make some glaring errors. I guess this one is because I still think of some records as being Ruth's. Sixty homeruns in a season is still Ruth's record, er, most he had, the Major League Record was broken by Maris ( no asterisk neccessary), so it took a minute or three to call it Roger's record, I won't even go beyond that for now. The error at hand: It has taken me even longer to not think #714 was the lifetime mark, in part because that was the number it had always been for most of my life. It was Ruth's record. Josh the Great likely hit far more, but because of circumstances beyond our control it simply doesn't count the same. When Hank Aaron broke Ruth's record, making it merely a milestone, or previous record, I couldn't believe he kept on going and going, ultimately shattering it and putting the new record out of reach for many, many generations to come. Hammerin' Hank just continued to pound 'em out when a lesser man likely would have suffered some collapse or power shortage soon after becoming Home Run King, thanks to the pressure cooker MLB had become even in the seventies. Anyone who hit nearly a hundred more than Mays, or two hundred more than Mantle is surely not going to see his record eclipsed for at least as long as 714 stood, would he? Aaron's 755 was so far out of the grasp for many of us to fathom it could be broken within our lifetimes, I looked at making second on the list by breaking Ruth's mark as something more than a mere milestone, it was breaking the Babe's old record. No one is going to hit 715 and then hit forty-one more are they? Nah, count your blessings and settle for second on the all-time list behind Aaron, at least that's what I thought until recently.
                    Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mattingly
                      I'd ask an open question here that may be relevant. Do people's bodies ever get some kind of immunity to PEDs, such as steroids?

                      For alcohol, I've known small people, including women about 5'4" and 120 lbs at most, who could drink 300 lb guys under the table. The reason being that some of those guys were light drinkers, but the woman was a bartender who'd been drinking all of her life. She could down a large $8 drink in a bar where a mug of domestic beer costs $3.

                      I've heard of rats out in the street (the ones that raid trash dumpsters) becoming immune to rat poison. Could that affect anything?

                      As to causing no harm, since you'd said moderate doses, that's one thing. However, are these amongst the more potent steroids? Were the amounts reduced based upon their increased potency, as compared to others?

                      If administered and supervised by an MD who knew about this, I might think that one's body would get accustomed to this, just as bodybuilders have been taking some form of steroids for ages. For some, over a long period of their competitive careers.
                      Again good question. Basicly the major problem with these substances is instead of building up a tolerance to them your body ceases production of the related naturally occoring substances. This is one of the reasons why steroid withdrawal can be so devastating. Its also one of the main reasons why these drugs are cycled, so tha body resumes producing them on its own.

                      As for developing an immunity, well like any thing if you take it long enough your going to become acclimated to it. Athletes could change the type of Anabolic or stack it with something to get the desired effects. Actually I'd venture to guess, and its only a guess, that most Steroid abusers who know what they are doing move on to stacking them with other substances fairly quickly. Once you begin to see the results I'd say its almost natural to want to do what you can to see more of the same.
                      Get out the Vote!!!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        If administered properly, steroids and the PED drugs these guys used can be more beneficial than harmful. The problem is most of these players had to administer the PEDs themselves or with the help of some gym rat to keep everything on the down low.

                        If you follow pro wrestling you see that about once a year one of those guys dies before the age of 45. Granted, they're probably in the catagory of "abusing steroids" but you know plenty of players also had to fit that bill. Even Giambi's knees have detoriated prematurely.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                          TonyK: Selig mentioned Article 2 and does anyone have an idea what he can invoke under that article?

                          you sure that selig referred to article II?
                          article II (titled "recognition") simply states that the clubs recognize the player association as the sole and exclusive bargaining agent for the players.

                          article XXII, though, is titled "management rights", and reads:
                          "nothing in this agreement shall be construed to restrict the rights of clubs to manage and direct their operations in any manner whatsoever except as specifically limited by the terms of this agreement."

                          this sounds like something to which selig would refer, tonyk.

                          hope this helps.
                          WC: Thanks. I thought he said 2, but I'm not positive. I assumed this was his right to make decisions "in the best interests of baseball". Perhaps someone else heard him and can verify this?
                          "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                          "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ESPNFan
                            Great question.....

                            You know there are so many variables and factors that need to be looked at I'd be very wary of saying anything of the sort. First off everyone's physical makeup is different and could possibly respond to these drugs somewhat uniquely, for good or ill. Second depending on the substance you have various levels of toxic content. Winstol for instance is one of the more potent and toxic Anabolics, but its an oral so people still use it. Another is all the possible side effects that are suspected to be related to steroid use (tendon failure, growth plate closure, liver damage, reduction of the "good" cholesterol etc...).
                            There would have to be some massive double blind controlled testing for a long period of time before I would say that these substances are safe, but you never know. BTW I'm not a Doctor nor a Medical Student so take my opinion for what it is....
                            I've been lurking here for a while and have never posted until I saw some of what is going on.

                            I'm a personal trainer and a 1st year med student. I have a fairly thorough knowledge of A/AS/PEDs, nothing like Conte or anyone else though.

                            While I respect what you do, some of what you are saying is wrong. There is a big difference between using steroids to treat cancer patients and using it to increase performance (sports/powerlifting/bodybuilding/whatever).

                            Just focusing on this post yes, winstrol (stanozolol) is an oral, but it is more commonly used as an injectable.

                            I'll post some more later, kinda busy ATM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ESPNFan
                              Again good question. Basicly the major problem with these substances is instead of building up a tolerance to them your body ceases production of the related naturally occoring substances. This is one of the reasons why steroid withdrawal can be so devastating. Its also one of the main reasons why these drugs are cycled, so tha body resumes producing them on its own.
                              Athletes and bodyuilders (if they know what they are doing) go through a PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) designed to boost and sustain natural testosterone production.

                              Within the legal realm of effective products to counteract testosterone suppression from pro-hormones (what androstene was), products like 6-OXO and ATD are available.

                              Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) and Clomid (clomifene citrate) are more powerful.

                              Also used to suppress estrogen.

                              As for developing an immunity, well like any thing if you take it long enough your going to become acclimated to it. Athletes could change the type of Anabolic or stack it with something to get the desired effects. Actually I'd venture to guess, and its only a guess, that most Steroid abusers who know what they are doing move on to stacking them with other substances fairly quickly. Once you begin to see the results I'd say its almost natural to want to do what you can to see more of the same.
                              As with (almost) everything, the Law of Diminishing returns is applicable. I knew some people who were past the "magical" 1gram mark of testosterone per injection. Note, these guys are experienced users (abusers?), 6'3 270 type guys.

                              Yes, steroids are stacked to improve synergistic effects

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                First off everyone's physical makeup is different and could possibly respond to these drugs somewhat uniquely, for good or ill.
                                Yes, some peoples androgen receptors respond better, some dont. Obviously, if you are disposed to MPB, heart disease, or numerous amounts of other problems, steroid use/abuse can accelerate the onset of these problems.

                                Comment

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